Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Article: NBA's "Most Problematic Contracts" - Bill Simmons w/ more Evidence Post #30

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    True. But in the Raptors case, they have to do something, or else, get buried again in rebuilding mode. Although they drafted 2 good young players, doesnt seem like any of those 2 will become elite talent. And you cant fault BC or any of the coaching staff for that. And then they were able to acquire a high calibre PG in Lowry, who will no doubt walk if the team does not show improvement with its roster. So what can you do? Like what white men cant jump said, for a team like the Raptors, you have no choice but to overpay to get talent, so you can keep the talent that you have. People can talk about flexibility until theyre blue in the face, but when there's no opportunity to use that flexibility, what good is it?

    With Amir, IMO, when he signed that contract in 2010 he was definitely overpaid. But the Raptors were not thinking of his current worth, but rather his potential and what he will be capable of doing down the road. And IMO, they were right with their analysis. With Amir's improvement and what he brings to the team, 6.5mil is just about right.

    It was the same situation when Memphis gave Gay his contract. If BC is still going to extend Gay with the same or higher contract, then thats the time i think he's gone nuts.

    Except they never should have left rebuilding mode in the first place, there was no reason to and nothing indicated that the Raps were ready to.

    Comment


    • #17
      Craiger wrote: View Post
      Except they never should have left rebuilding mode in the first place, there was no reason to and nothing indicated that the Raps were ready to.
      True. But how long do you ride this rebuilding mode? BC has gone through 6(?) top 10 picks and none of them turned out to be franchise players. How many more high picks should the team go through? Another 10? 20? BC is also an employee too. He's working for a paycheck just like everybody else. Its easy for us fans to say keeping getting high picks every year but for BC, when he's drafting high picks and still the team is a bottom feeder, what would that say about your performance? Mind you if Durant didnt turn out to be the way he is now, Presti would not be with OKC right now. And i can bet you that even Presti could not have predicted that Durant will be the player he is now. He was hoping. If he was given the chance to trade that 2nd pick for a legit superstar, he probably would have.

      i think the timing to ditch the rebuilding mode was fine. BC has acquired pieces in the draft that, although not elite, can be a staple component of a good team (Demar, JV and Ross). Lowry, Gay are the leaders and Amir and Fields are the main role players. 1-2 major pieces more and IMO, a solid, playoff team.

      Comment


      • #18
        TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
        True. But how long do you ride this rebuilding mode? BC has gone through 6(?) top 10 picks and none of them turned out to be franchise players. How many more high picks should the team go through? Another 10? 20? BC is also an employee too. He's working for a paycheck just like everybody else. Its easy for us fans to say keeping getting high picks every year but for BC, when he's drafting high picks and still the team is a bottom feeder, what would that say about your performance? Mind you if Durant didnt turn out to be the way he is now, Presti would not be with OKC right now. And i can bet you that even Presti could not have predicted that Durant will be the player he is now. He was hoping. If he was given the chance to trade that 2nd pick for a legit superstar, he probably would have.

        i think the timing to ditch the rebuilding mode was fine. BC has acquired pieces in the draft that, although not elite, can be a staple component of a good team (Demar, JV and Ross). Lowry, Gay are the leaders and Amir and Fields are the main role players. 1-2 major pieces more and IMO, a solid, playoff team.
        I guess you keep going until you find a player to build around. In reality, you cannot stop "rebuilding" if you don't have a player to build a foundation with. Not a single player on this roster is that guy.

        Comment


        • #19
          TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
          True. But how long do you ride this rebuilding mode? BC has gone through 6(?) top 10 picks and none of them turned out to be franchise players. How many more high picks should the team go through? Another 10? 20? BC is also an employee too. He's working for a paycheck just like everybody else. Its easy for us fans to say keeping getting high picks every year but for BC, when he's drafting high picks and still the team is a bottom feeder, what would that say about your performance? Mind you if Durant didnt turn out to be the way he is now, Presti would not be with OKC right now. And i can bet you that even Presti could not have predicted that Durant will be the player he is now. He was hoping. If he was given the chance to trade that 2nd pick for a legit superstar, he probably would have.

          i think the timing to ditch the rebuilding mode was fine. BC has acquired pieces in the draft that, although not elite, can be a staple component of a good team (Demar, JV and Ross). Lowry, Gay are the leaders and Amir and Fields are the main role players. 1-2 major pieces more and IMO, a solid, playoff team.
          I'd ask, how quickly does one expect a rebuild to take place?

          "Rebuilding" didn't start until into the the 2010/11 season - and the Raps were out of it by the end of the 2012 season. Thats not even 2 years. I'd expect a team being willing to spend more time than that.

          Yes the Raps had alot of other 'bad' seasons, but those weren't rebuilding. Those were worse than mediocre seasons, and arguably a result of Colangelo being unwilling to rebuild (and making decisions similar to this year. ie. overspending, trading away picks etc).

          Comment


          • #20
            Craiger wrote: View Post
            Bold 1 - However, teams aren't obligated to give out those contracts, nor are teams obligated to take on those contracts (ie. trade for them) after they've been signed. A limited supply of the 'best' doesn't justify placing an excessive demand on the rest. Its justifying spending a fortune on ground beef because all the fillet mignon is sold out.
            .
            +Infinity & 1 gazbillion Facebook likes.

            Somebody hire an airplane banner and fly this over BC's office until he gets it or he's gone. GMs like BC are why we have lockouts and ticket prices are so high.

            Comment


            • #21
              so early in its team-building cycle
              little do they know we have been rebuilding for the past 6 years!

              Comment


              • #22
                Craiger wrote: View Post
                Bold 1 - However, teams aren't obligated to give out those contracts, nor are teams obligated to take on those contracts (ie. trade for them) after they've been signed. A limited supply of the 'best' doesn't justify placing an excessive demand on the rest. Its justifying spending a fortune on ground beef because all the fillet mignon is sold out.


                Bold 2 - first off and most importantly there WAS something that could have been done about it. Not sign them or take them on in the first place. Besides, there is something the team could do about it. Try their best to dump them or get rid of them and start over. Now I'll admit, that may not be realistic (or easy even), given what Colangelo has been trying to do, but it is an option.


                Just to touch on Amir. I see a few people have mentioned his contract looked bad when it was signed and its playing out differently. But there is a significant difference. The stats actually said it was a fair deal, as opposed to the other deals that have (Bargnani, Fields, Kleiza, Derozan, Gay) which say the exact opposite.

                Re: Point 1 - Yes, I agree with you here. However, history has shown us that they have, and continue to do so. Perhaps the new CBA will start to change these things.

                Re: Point 2 - I was talking about us as fans. Not much that we can do about the decisions that have been made.

                Comment


                • #23
                  To start both Kobe and Dirk are on the list so a bit of perspective. Secondly no matter what you think of DeRozen it is hard to argue that he is not continuing to improve so I would argue that the jury is still out on his contract. It may be Bargs, but hopefully it will be Amir, and probably will be somewhere in between. Fields will probably never live up to his payroll due to a stupid idea that could have ended a lot worse (imagine overpaying for both him and an aging Nash). Klieza will be amnestied. This will cost the owners but not the clubs flexibility. Needless to say the Bargnani ship can only be righted if they can get something for him. I am the first to say his whole career has been a bad idea gone wrong but with him playing and posting his all time worst numbers don't you have to keep playing him until he at least resembles his former underwhelming self. Gay... a lot to like but more and more signs of suspect bang for the buck. No one else will offer him max going forward and the CBA appears to have finally curbed salaries. Which leads me to ask can anyone explain to me ( other than Doug Smith ) why Coangelo continues to trade away draft picks?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Axel wrote: View Post
                    Chemistry is over-rated over-all. Chemistry is only an important factor when comparing elite championship level teams playing a 7 game series. For teams like the Raps, chemistry isn't going to be the difference, talent is.
                    As for consistency, it doesn't matter if it's their first season, 10th season, or first day on the job, they are professional athletes and are expected to perform consistently. Now a rookie is expected to have a learning curve and growth, but I don't think consistency of a roster is necessary for consistency on the court for the level of play the Raptors are at. If they were in the top seed discussion, then yeah, worry about the constant roster flux, but at this point, the team doesn't have enough talent to worry about that.
                    I would disagree, but in this case, or this roster, it's true. Chemistry is great, but lack the surrounding talent.
                    Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      coastal wrote: View Post
                      Amir's contract used to be in these lists. I think most Raptors fans now believe it's pretty reasonable for what he brings. I expect we're going to believe the same about DeRoazan's.

                      The other three, we'll see.
                      +1

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Signing bad contrats isn't a great thing to do obviously but what this whole ongoing argument fails to EVER mention is that a) no contract is untradeable (See Turkoglu, Hedo) and b) being a shit team and refusing to pay for talent does not equal becoming OKC (see Sacramento, LAC before CP3, Minnesota etc.). In fact the tank argument is really just a blind gamble banking on getting the top choice in a stacked draft who then actually fulfills his talent, doesn't get hurt AND you're able to attract FAs going forward. Even with a once in a generation player (like, say, Lebron) you don't guarantee anything for your franchise (exactly what top tier FAs did LBJs Cleveland teams ever attract?).

                        So lets say you are suffering through 6 years of weak drafts, bad luck, bad choices etc. Is really the best thing to do, year after year, to suck as hard as possible in hopes that the saviour is walking through the door NEXT year? No it's not. You lose fans, you lose any pull with agents and FAs, you lose sponsors and you tarnish your brand.

                        Is Gays contract terrible? Yes. Is Andrea a milstone? Yes. So what? Amnesty AB if it comes to that and build around Gay, DD (who is actually earning that poorly timed contract) and Lowry. Those three represent the three best players this franchise has had under contract in more than a decade. A lot of things need to get figured out by the brass, the coaching staff and the players to realize that talent but it's there. You simply cannot put frugality as the number one concern unless the draft is what really gets you going.

                        Worst contract in the NBA is Kobe by a country mile. It's eating up a third of their cap space and will get worse for 2 more years. Sure Kobe is putting up numbers on offence but he's a pretty shoddy defender these days, plays largely inefficient basketball, injuries and age have slowed down his first step and reduced his vertical and he's only gotten HARDER to be a teammate of. You think chemistry is overrated? Look at the Lake Show. They have zero chemistry. Howard pouts, Kobe bristles, Nash is lost, Gasol has been totally dissed... whoa tangent, sorry. All I'm saying is that cap space is as much a false hope as is tanking. we had all kinds of cap space the past few years and for what? To watch Gary fucking Forbes and Rasual fricking Butler? Gimme an overpaid Rudy Gay ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

                        And twice on Sundays.
                        LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          yertu damkule wrote: View Post
                          woah woah woah...in what alternate reality is derozan's contract (starting next year) in any way 'reasonable' considering his current play/abilities? i'm curious what this 'development' is that people seem so enamoured with.

                          maybe i'm wearing blinders, but all i see with DD is a 3rd or 4th fiddle on a mediocre-decent team (which is probably what they are now), and a 6th-7th man (at best) on a contending team. he hasn't improved his long range shooting (and if he's still this bad at this point, chances are, this is who he is), he's still a highly suspect (to put it kindly) defender, and he still has NO HANDLES. not to mention that for all his athleticism, he's still a horrible finisher in traffic - he seems to lack any explosiveness unless he has a running start. so yeah, if he's open coming down the lane & can get a good run into his jump, he can finish (so don't bring up the mozgov most-amazing-dunk-of-all-time). with the ball in the block against any resistence, he doesn't even try to use his hops to get a shot off over even shorter defenders (tells me he's scurred of getting his shot blocked). when he doesn't take two dribbles, look around confused, and pass out, he takes a fadeaway. put anyone between him & the basket, and he appears bewildered as to what to do. and for someone who's such an 'incredible' leaper, boy, does he not mind getting out of the way when he's the last/only guy back defending on a break.

                          i'm sorry, but if you're a fan of this team, and you've watched DD play this year and for his tenure in TO, and you're happy with his contract going forward...i honestly don't know what to say. of course, gay's contract almost makes DD's reasonable, so...YAY RAPTORS!

                          gawd, i hope i'm wrong about him. REVERSE JINX REVERSE JINX REVERSE JINX!!!!!!!!!!
                          Did you just perform Inception on me because this is exactly what I was thinking.
                          “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            minks77 wrote: View Post
                            Signing bad contrats isn't a great thing to do obviously but what this whole ongoing argument fails to EVER mention is that a) no contract is untradeable (See Turkoglu, Hedo) and b) being a shit team and refusing to pay for talent does not equal becoming OKC (see Sacramento, LAC before CP3, Minnesota etc.). In fact the tank argument is really just a blind gamble banking on getting the top choice in a stacked draft who then actually fulfills his talent, doesn't get hurt AND you're able to attract FAs going forward. Even with a once in a generation player (like, say, Lebron) you don't guarantee anything for your franchise (exactly what top tier FAs did LBJs Cleveland teams ever attract?).
                            (a) Horrible contracts are typically tradeable if (1) you package them with something desirable (draft picks or cheap talent for examples) or (2) you accept other undesirable assets in return. There are exceptions of course but in general teams do not get a plus asset for trading just a negative asset.

                            Hedo was an exception. Baron Davis was more the norm.

                            (b) That one I fully agree with. Tanking in the hope of selecting a franchise player is a very risky proposition. I think it's a fair game if the team sucks one year but repeated use of this "strategy" can alienate the customer base.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                              (a) Horrible contracts are typically tradeable if (1) you package them with something desirable (draft picks or cheap talent for examples) or (2) you accept other undesirable assets in return. There are exceptions of course but in general teams do not get a plus asset for trading just a negative asset.

                              Hedo was an exception. Baron Davis was more the norm.

                              (b) That one I fully agree with. Tanking in the hope of selecting a franchise player is a very risky proposition. I think it's a fair game if the team sucks one year but repeated use of this "strategy" can alienate the customer base.
                              To a degree I agree, you gotta sweeten the pot, which BC has no aversion to doing with picks as we've seen but in taking back undesirable assets the mitigating factor is you are generally taking back an undesirable with a silver lining (fits a need or simply has less years). I also don't think Hedo was as much an exception as you posit. Of course the higher the salary (esp. combined with other factors like attitude, injury history etc) the more the BDiddy example becomes the norm.

                              My argument stems from the frustration with so many posters who would only build teams of low cost, highly efficient (on paper, per 36m) players only, basically 5 Quincy Acys, and never admit that sometimes you gotta pay for real talent.
                              LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                League's Most Atrocious Contracts

                                I think the last time someone posted this the title wasn't consistent with the thread.. this time it is, and it's Bill Simmons.
                                http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...-contracts-nba

                                Here's ours:

                                25. Rudy Gay: three years, $53.7 million
                                Most fans love the idea of Rudy: 6-foot-8, defends either forward spot, good athlete, unafraid at crunch time, seems like he's good. Nobody wants to accept that he's a horrific shooter — repeat: horrific — who excels at posting up smaller defenders, and that's about it. Math doesn't lie: According to Hoopdata.com, Gay is shooting 25 percent on shots from 16 to 23 feet (the worst percentage of anyone who attempted three-plus shots per game from that range) and 23.3 percent from 3 (the worst percentage of anyone who attempted three-plus 3s per game). In other words, Gay attempts nearly 10 shots per game from more than 15 feet and makes two of them. I stand by "horrific."

                                Now, there's an excellent chance that (a) Gay needed a change of scenery, (b) Z-Bo and Marc Gasol clogged the paint and made it more difficult for him to drive to the hoop (there's some truth to that), (c) he's better off playing the 4 and exploiting quickness mismatches there (à la Carmelo) and (d) this trade could still work out for Toronto if Gay ever stops throwing up bricks. But reading Marc Spears's report that Toronto wants to lock up Gay TO AN EXTENSION this summer … I mean … what???? Why not use these last six weeks to make sure he's still competent offensively before broaching that strategy publicly? What's wrong with these teams?
                                10. Landry Fields: three years, $18.73 million
                                Don't forget, Toronto offered Fields too much money as a strategic ploy. (Not a typo.) They were hoping the Knicks would knock themselves out of the Steve Nash sweepstakes to match the offer, leaving Toronto as Nash's only suitor. Instead, Nash went to the Lakers and New York gleefully stuck Toronto with Fields, making him the Kip Addotta of 2012 free agency (see this column for an explanation). What's the right word for that chain of events? I'm going with "hilarious!" unless you can top it.

                                Meanwhile, Fields is turning into the Dave Stapleton of basketball — instead of getting better every year like every other young player, he's somehow getting worse.

                                2011: 9.7 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 50% FG, 39% 3FG, 77% FT, 13.5 PER.
                                2012: 8.8 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 46% FG, 26% 3FG, 56% FT, 12.1 PER.
                                2013: 4.7 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 45% FG, 8% 3FG, 70% FT, 10.2 PER.

                                Translation: This is threatening to replace the murder subplot in Season 2 of Friday Night Lights as the most painful story line involving someone named Landry. Stay tuned.
                                5. Andrea Bargnani: three years, $33 million
                                Player A: 29.2 MPG, 13.0 PPG, 3.7 RPG, 40% FG, 31% 3FG, 11.4 PER.
                                Player B: 29.7 MPG, 12.0 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 39% FG, 32% 3FG, 12.4 PER.

                                Player A is Bargnani. Player B is Byron Mullens.

                                WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO YOU, ANDREA BARGNANI????????

                                We didn't even mention his stupefyingly awful defense, or the fact that the Raptors are minus-7.1 points per 100 possessions when Bargnani plays, and plus-0.8 points per 100 possessions when he sits. I hope Phoenix trades for Bargnani and teams him with Beasley.
                                Honorable mention since Colangelo gave this contract:

                                9. Hedo Turkoglu: two years, $23.8 million
                                At least Hedo had the dignity to get suspended for steroids and save Orlando 20 games' pay (about $2.9 million). So that was nice of him. Do you want to make the snarky "I'm sure it was a total coincidence that Dwight Howard's two best teammates from Orlando's improbable 2009 playoff run never played that well again and both ended up getting suspended for PEDs, because there's noooooo waaaaaaaay the NBA has a PED problem" joke, or should I take it? Actually, you have it. I insist.
                                your pal,
                                ebrian

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X