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  • #31
    elarmthecity wrote: View Post
    i mean i watched lowry..sure he has passion..and he is a dog a warrior and all that...but he has no idea and i mean no idea how to run a pick and roll offense..which is where our offense thrived to be third in ball control this season when jose was running...i mean lowry's d is good but not that good...jose would have been a difference maker with rudy on the team....sure he is a liablity on defense....but he did improve...plus he had size for a pg and also one of the best shots in the nba when he goes off the screen...pick n pop machine...however i know the chances of even jose wanting to come back is slim to none...but if we want to improve as a club...number one choice is find another pg...use lowry as a backup...or place dwane as an assistant...cuz he is lookin terrible as a head coach
    I'm not even sure I would call his D good. Good PG D is keeping your man in front of you (easier said than done), fighting through screens and contesting shots. Lowry takes way too many chances by jumping into passing lanes and constantly reaching instead of playing with his feet. Though he clearly has the ability to play good, if not great D, it's a matter of reigning him in to play smart instead of going for glory every play.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

    Comment


    • #32
      planetmars wrote: View Post
      The little ounce of optimism I had came before the start of this season, and then the team went 4-19. I am not making that mistake again.

      I am going into next season with a 'meh' attitude. I'll only be happy if the Raptors replaced their GM.
      Couldn't have said it better myself. I'll admit to drinking the Kool-Aid in the past. Not this time.
      There's math, and everything else is debatable.

      @clericalbeats

      Comment


      • #33
        Fully wrote: View Post
        I think the Raptors should package Ross with Bargnani this summer if the return is something good (i.e: a starter quality PF).

        It should be painfully obvious by now that Bargs isn't fetching anything of value by himself and Ross is the team's most desirable trade piece not named JV when you factor in his upside/salary. It always confused me when BC said Ross was "untouchable" in the Gay discussions considering that if the trade went through, Ross would be completely squeezed for minutes. I know a lot of people on the forums are high on him but he may need to be sacrificed if Bargnani is going to be turned into anything tangible.

        You raise a good point.. Bargnani alone I don't think can fetch anything good (unless its Boozer which I don't see happening anymore). So you would have to package him with some other asset to make the trade worthwhile.

        Here are the options:

        Bargnani + 2014 pick -> assuming the Raptors don't get in the top 3 then the 2014 pick is back. That would be very enticing to teams, and Bryan loves giving his pick away. I have no faith in the Raptors making the playoffs next season either, so giving up a lottery pick just to get rid of Bargnani in a "good" draft is a tall task. But this is probably the most likely option.

        Bargnani + Ross -> probably the most realistic if a player is involved. That's about $12.5M outgoing so can get someone decent and a team would probably bite as they get a guy with a lot of potential. But if you want to trade a guy with that much potential on a team that needs potential then it might be a bad deal.

        Bargnani + DeMar -> SG's are in short supply in the league and DeMar has 4 years under his belt. $9.5M is a high price tag, and $20M for the overall package is even higher. I don't think BC is willing to give up DeMar though.

        Bargnani + Fields -> LAL may make sense here as Fields did his best work for D'Antoni and Bargnani is a stretch 4 that they would probably love to have next to Dwight. Could see a trade like this for Gasol.. but LA is also looking to clear cap space for when Lebron is a potential free agent (although that's just speculation). Outside of LA I don't see too many teams interested in this pair and even then its unlikely.

        Bargnani + Kleiza -> Petrie of all people would probably slam the phone if this offer came through.

        Bargnani + Amir -> The Raptors would lose all their PF's, not going to happen.

        Bargnani + Lowry -> Perhaps if Jose was still a Raptor, but not anymore.

        Bargnani + Gay -> That's a lot of dough, and no way is Bryan going to trade Gay after just acquiring him.

        Bargnani + JV -> Yah right.

        That leaves the deep bench guys - Acy, JL3, Telfair, Gray and Zubcic. Don't see any team interested in any of these guys (unless if its JL3 and Chicago for that Boozer deal). The Raptors also only have one 2014 2nd rounder.. they do not have a 2013 2nd rounder. So that's one more asset they don't have.

        It's pretty sad but the best options to include in a trade package for Bargnani will be either Ross or the 2014 pick and those are big assets. Hopefully the Boozer deal is back on the table, otherwise we'll be talking about Spencer Hawes again.

        Comment


        • #34
          I would rather Dalembert whining and playing ball having some sort of offense in his toolbox than the immobile Lethargic laying Eggs Aaron Gray.

          Comment


          • #35
            planetmars wrote: View Post
            You raise a good point.. Bargnani alone I don't think can fetch anything good (unless its Boozer which I don't see happening anymore). So you would have to package him with some other asset to make the trade worthwhile.

            Here are the options:

            Bargnani + 2014 pick -> assuming the Raptors don't get in the top 3 then the 2014 pick is back. That would be very enticing to teams, and Bryan loves giving his pick away. I have no faith in the Raptors making the playoffs next season either, so giving up a lottery pick just to get rid of Bargnani in a "good" draft is a tall task. But this is probably the most likely option.

            Bargnani + Ross -> probably the most realistic if a player is involved. That's about $12.5M outgoing so can get someone decent and a team would probably bite as they get a guy with a lot of potential. But if you want to trade a guy with that much potential on a team that needs potential then it might be a bad deal.

            Bargnani + DeMar -> SG's are in short supply in the league and DeMar has 4 years under his belt. $9.5M is a high price tag, and $20M for the overall package is even higher. I don't think BC is willing to give up DeMar though.

            Bargnani + Fields -> LAL may make sense here as Fields did his best work for D'Antoni and Bargnani is a stretch 4 that they would probably love to have next to Dwight. Could see a trade like this for Gasol.. but LA is also looking to clear cap space for when Lebron is a potential free agent (although that's just speculation). Outside of LA I don't see too many teams interested in this pair and even then its unlikely.

            Bargnani + Kleiza -> Petrie of all people would probably slam the phone if this offer came through.

            Bargnani + Amir -> The Raptors would lose all their PF's, not going to happen.

            Bargnani + Lowry -> Perhaps if Jose was still a Raptor, but not anymore.

            Bargnani + Gay -> That's a lot of dough, and no way is Bryan going to trade Gay after just acquiring him.

            Bargnani + JV -> Yah right.

            That leaves the deep bench guys - Acy, JL3, Telfair, Gray and Zubcic. Don't see any team interested in any of these guys (unless if its JL3 and Chicago for that Boozer deal). The Raptors also only have one 2014 2nd rounder.. they do not have a 2013 2nd rounder. So that's one more asset they don't have.

            It's pretty sad but the best options to include in a trade package for Bargnani will be either Ross or the 2014 pick and those are big assets. Hopefully the Boozer deal is back on the table, otherwise we'll be talking about Spencer Hawes again.
            I think this breakdown is pretty spot on. My preference would be the first one if we luck into it, obviously. I hate to give up another current asset just to get rid of Bargs, and as much hype as the 2014 draft is getting, drafts are still drafts, and the chance of getting a high impact player outside the top 3-5 is always low.

            I would not really like to move Ross or Demar, as I doubt that any player gotten back will actually be that much better than either one is/can be. I feel like another year is needed before making that choice. Though in theory I would trade either one, but I don't know if I trust BC to win that trade....be it now, next year or later (god, if BC's still here...)

            In the end, if he can't connect Bargs to a draft pick, or to some depth pieces (Lucas, etc), I would hope he doesn't try to actually get a good player back. Just trade Bargs for whatever you can without impacting the core. If he can turn him into one good bench piece even, and/or less commitments, I'd be ok with that.

            Comment


            • #36
              Nilanka wrote: View Post
              I acknowledge it's a gamble choosing Ross's future "potential" over DeRozan's current production, but I'm just not a fan of DeRozan's game. I prefer Ross's pure athleticism, and hope that his jumper and defense make significant improvements this offseason. This future Ross seems like a much more balanced fit on the wing with Gay. Just my opinion.
              From a purely logistical standpoint, it will be harder for teams to absorb ~$20 million dollars of salary with DeRozan/Bargnani than it will be to absorb ~$13 million with Ross/Bargnani. Ross also signifies a great deal of potential in any deal, which will be big for any team that is willing to take Bargnani's corpse off the Raptors hands. Also, as you referenced earlier, DeRozan's contract isn't dreadful by any stretch, but I doubt that a lot of teams see it as a great value either.

              From a basketball standpoint, the Raptors can't really afford to sacrifice production for potential with the way their current roster is set up. They've basically moved into win now mode (as ridiculous as that may seem; it's true) for the next two seasons and DD figures to be a big part of that. Ross simply isn't ready to start in the league. The talk of him being "untouchable" to me is laughable with so much wing depth in front of him and his struggles during large stretches of this year.

              The 'rebuild' came to a screeching halt when they traded for Gay. Even before then, the Raptors seemed to struggle with the balance between developing their young players and putting a competitive team on the court. I can only see that getting worse as the pressure to make the playoffs gets amplified next year. I think Ross has more value for the Raptors in a trade than he does on the actual roster.

              Comment


              • #37
                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                I acknowledge it's a gamble choosing Ross's future "potential" over DeRozan's current production, but I'm just not a fan of DeRozan's game. I prefer Ross's pure athleticism, and hope that his jumper and defense make significant improvements this offseason. This future Ross seems like a much more balanced fit on the wing with Gay. Just my opinion.
                This + the financial impact of DeRozan VS Ross.

                The Raptors are nearly a luxury tax team yet the team - as currently constructed - is going to need to play well just to sneak into the playoffs next year. There is a huge disparity between the team's salary and talent, let alone the fit of what talent and youth/potential the team does have.

                Even removing Bargnani & Kleiza would still only bring the team down to the expected salary cap level, meaning the only way talent can be added is via free agency (exceptions only) and trade.

                All of this rationale is why I've been so vocal about the team needing to at least consider the possibility of trading DeRozan, especially if it's the only/best way to address the starting PF spot. I just don't think Bargnani and garbage is going to get it done, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong!

                Comment


                • #38
                  CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                  This + the financial impact of DeRozan VS Ross.

                  The Raptors are nearly a luxury tax team yet the team - as currently constructed - is going to need to play well just to sneak into the playoffs next year. There is a huge disparity between the team's salary and talent, let alone the fit of what talent and youth/potential the team does have.

                  Even removing Bargnani & Kleiza would still only bring the team down to the expected salary cap level, meaning the only way talent can be added is via free agency (exceptions only) and trade.

                  All of this rationale is why I've been so vocal about the team needing to at least consider the possibility of trading DeRozan, especially if it's the only/best way to address the starting PF spot. I just don't think Bargnani and garbage is going to get it done, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong!
                  Salary matching rules mean that any trade for DeRozan is going to result in the Raptors taking back a similar amount of salary in return though. Unless you're trading him for a draft pick - and in that case I don't see it solving the starting PF problem necessarily.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
                    I'm not even sure I would call his D good. Good PG D is keeping your man in front of you (easier said than done), fighting through screens and contesting shots. Lowry takes way too many chances by jumping into passing lanes and constantly reaching instead of playing with his feet. Though he clearly has the ability to play good, if not great D, it's a matter of reigning him in to play smart instead of going for glory every play.
                    Part of his gambles are made up for by taking charges, defensive rebounding, and weak-side strips.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      The best NBA PG in the league at getting over screens is Deron Williams.

                      It is not only because he is big for a PG, he has perfect defensive technique in doing it. Guys screening him screen his outstretched arm, his arms are always up on defense, giving him the space to go over it.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Nilanka wrote: View Post
                        Part of his gambles are made up for by taking charges, defensive rebounding, and weak-side strips.
                        'Part' is the key word here. I don't know any gambler that takes risks hoping to win back 'part' of their money. I would still prefer to see him force bad passes/shots/turnovers through sound D rather than risk-taking. Helps the team as a whole play better D.
                        There's math, and everything else is debatable.

                        @clericalbeats

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Pretty sure Ross,JV, DeMar Gay and Lowry are the safest players on the roster.

                          BC had a huge boner for getting Gay to Toronto, could of had him sooner with trading Ross he declined. If he isnt willing to give up Ross for Gay a player he is crazy about I doubt Ross moving for anything else really slim.

                          DeMar signed that new contract he says hes part of the future, and with his improved play this season BC no doubt is thinking he made the right move.

                          JV is a Big F U to fans who hammered him for picking him cause JV is seeming to be the real deal and steal of that draft hes a certain part of the future.

                          Lowry was given the team over long time holder Calderon he wont trade him right away and will likely be extended hes also best friend of his star player Rudy Gay.

                          Rudy Gay, BC just got him here wanted him for years (apparently asked for opps to get him every season He isnt moving.

                          ^that is the core and goddam its a pretty talented one hes just needs to move the garbage and get some guys that can hold down the fort & not wet the bed when we are up 20 points.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Like many fans I'm sure, I was thinking very positive about this team 10 games after the Rudy trade. Now, of course, I'm skeptical like many of the posters here. Overall, a JV, AJ, RG, DD, KL starting lineup looks pretty good, and I would expect them to perform better next season if it goes that way. I'm excited about JV, I think with more playing time he is gonna turn out to be a pretty good two way center. I'd like to see the Raps feeding him in the post for the remainder of the season so he can improve that aspect of his game, and that is something we surely lack.

                            The Raps play too much one on one. They need to run more set plays, and move the ball more. If DD and RG continue to be low percentage shooters than this team just isnt gonna work, and as long as they play predominantly ISO type ball, they will be low percentage shooters.

                            I love Amir but Lowry is a mystery to me. I'm not sure he is being properly motivated. At the beginning of the season he was a beast, but he hasnt played that way in quite awhile. I really don't know what to expect of him. I believe Jose was a better floor general, he used to work the pick and roll with Amir brilliantly. We need more of that from Kyle, but he also has to be aggressive going to the hole like he was early on. Not so much that he hogs the ball, but enough to keep the defense honest and to provide for kick out opps. At this point, I'm not sure that Lowry understands his role on the team, or if he does, is committed to it. I'd like to see 14ppg, 8 + apg, 5+ rpg, and around 2 steals.

                            Someone needs to convince Rudy there is a future with this team. Otherwise, I don't see him putting in 100% consistently. He has to believe this is going somewhere, if not he will just play for himself and his statline and the next contract (although I dont think this will work well for him either, no one will want a volume 40% FG shooter at his price, except the Raps of course lol).

                            There is only room on this team for 2 of Anderson, Fields, and Ross. Ross isnt going unless something crazy is offered. So he is DD's backup, and hopefully competition for playing time in the SG postition will motivate them both to improve. I'd take Anderson over Fields, simply because he is cheaper and a better 3pt shooter. Bargs has to go of course, and I'd be happy with nothing in return. I'm not sure I'd be happy with Boozer though if that trade is a possibility in the offseason. I think Amir plays the all around game much better, and if developing JV's low post game is a priority, then adding Boozer may only retard JV's development.

                            In any event, regardless of who the Raps have on the floor next year, they just better make the playoffs or I may regurgitate everything I've eaten in the past 34 yrs!!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              planetmars wrote: View Post
                              You raise a good point.. Bargnani alone I don't think can fetch anything good (unless its Boozer which I don't see happening anymore). So you would have to package him with some other asset to make the trade worthwhile.

                              Here are the options:

                              Bargnani + 2014 pick -> assuming the Raptors don't get in the top 3 then the 2014 pick is back. That would be very enticing to teams, and Bryan loves giving his pick away. I have no faith in the Raptors making the playoffs next season either, so giving up a lottery pick just to get rid of Bargnani in a "good" draft is a tall task. But this is probably the most likely option.
                              That is not an option, as you cannot trade your draft pick 2 seasons in a row. If we don't get top 3 pick this year, then we are trading our 2013 first round pick to OKC, and therefore cannot trade our 2014 first round pick. We could trade the 2015 first round pick, so just swap that into your reasoning and it makes sense rules wise.

                              I'm still hoping for a Bargs to Charlotte for Ben Gordon and a first round pick (Charlotte has several this year). We take on more salary for a season but we get a good shooter and a draft pick. Charlotte gets their starting PF and now they don't have to overpay Mullens, who is a poor mans Bargs.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                It's tough to find the right balance of players. I hate how people state that our rebuild all of a sudden stopped. Let's be honest you need the right mix. We have two guys that we have time to wait for in Terrence Ross and Val. We have a guy who is close to his potential in Derozan. We have a few guys who just entered their prime in Gay and Lowry and Amir.

                                Honestly I don't know what else we can do. I figure we'll amnest Kleiza, and I'd assume there is a market out there for Bargs. I'd rather us fill the rest of the rosters with veterans who know how to win. I would also not be opposed to signing Carl Landry. I think we should roll with the starting 5 we have now. We legitimately have 4 starters on this team for a lot of teams.

                                It's hard for me to be as mad at Colangelo as others are. I liked the Lowry deal, I thought it was good value. I was in favour of Rudy Gay, I thought we won the trade and acquired the best talent. I have been a supporter of Demar. He's improved every year by a significant margin.
                                Amir won me over when he was first traded. I figured he wouldn't last long, but had some great pick n roll dunks when he arrived here. I think he's surprised the whole league on how he's developed. Val was the right choice for our team. You can see the potential in a guy who can anchor the team defensively while selling tickets for being a high energy guy.

                                I get that we haven't been to the playoffs in awhile and that's on the GM. The best strategy is for us to continue with this core and try to improve our offensive flow, and stop with the stagnant offence.

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