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  • #31
    Horford only gets moved for Dwight Howard. I thought this was obvious. Atlanta has been rumored since last year to be after Dwight. Now, I don't think he will choose to go to Atlanta, but the Hawks have to keep the only asset they have to use in such a deal. Yes, I know Dwight is a free agent, but a player of his calibre gets re-signed for whatever max he gets with his "current" team even if he wants to go. So Howard basically is either signed by LA, or signed and traded by LA. This makes the teams that can chase him the ones that actually have an asset (beyond picks) to take back. I mean, LA would clearly take Horford and a couple of picks rather than lose Howard for nothing, and Howard would rather get the extra money. Although I think Howard stays in LA.

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    • #32
      Mediumcore wrote: View Post
      I agree that trading for Horford wouldn't be easy, but considering since he's come to ATL, Danny Ferry has unloaded both the Joe Johnson contract as well as Marvin Williams, and not made an attempt to resign Josh Smith to an extension it's clear he's trying to unload salary to go after a "big fish" in the off season, aka Dwight Howard. If he strikes out he will be looking to the summer of 2015 when LeBron along with a plethora of other star players become free agents.

      If trading Bargnani plus our first rounder in next years draft gets him further under the salary cap as well as increases the chances of Atlanta's pick being higher (via tanking) the move may make sense to him. Two shots at Wiggins is a good thing for a team looking to rebuild.

      Another scenario which may play out is that if we are approaching next years trade deadline and the season is going the same way as this years is then a team like ATL that is looking to make big moves in free agency would really covet Rudy Gay's contract. Actually any team looking to go after free agents in the year of LeBron free agency would covet that contract, so perhaps a Gay for Horford and filler would be appealing to both teams at that point.
      I agree with the rationale, but not with what ATL will take back. If the core of the deal is Bargnani, I think you're looking at giving up Ross as well. Atlanta is desperate for young talent on the wings, and you can't give up one of the most solid and consistent frontcourt players in the league for Bargnani and the uncertainty of a pick.

      You can't just tank, you need to still amass assets. I mean if they tanked and got the 6th pick, and no good player came of it, they'd have basically no young core whatsoever, and will have missed on the best draft in a decade, being stuck sucking for 2-3 more years and hoping a gem falls into their lap in the draft in one of those years. Atlanta can't afford that. They struggle with attendance as a good team. A 3-5 year rebuild might see them lose a lot of money and leave the city.

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      • #33
        I was thinking that Ferry, as a Popovich deciple is trying to build through the draft. Only Horford would remain as part of the winning Hawks era next season, and if you move him it's full on tank mode because there is a really good chance that Josh Smith moves on over the summer. I'm thinking that first round picks are something Ferry would value very much along with getting further under the salary cap.

        Just looking at other options besides the Boozer/Gasol trades which I'm not really that trilled about. I'd love to see Horford and JV man the paint for Toronto.

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        • #34
          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
          I was thinking that Ferry, as a Popovich deciple is trying to build through the draft. Only Horford would remain as part of the winning Hawks era next season, and if you move him it's full on tank mode because there is a really good chance that Josh Smith moves on over the summer. I'm thinking that first round picks are something Ferry would value very much along with getting further under the salary cap.

          Just looking at other options besides the Boozer/Gasol trades which I'm not really that trilled about. I'd love to see Horford and JV man the paint for Toronto.
          Horford is still young and a great player. I think Ferry could turn Smith into multiple assets - ie: good young talent and draft picks. Plus, they will have plenty of cap space to add additional talent over the next few offseasons.

          I don't think his intention is to go into full tank mode, but rather is a 2-option re-tooling plan: Option 1 is to keep Smith and use him to lure Howard; Option 2 is to use Smith as trade bait if Howard declines.

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          • #35
            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            Horford is still young and a great player. I think Ferry could turn Smith into multiple assets - ie: good young talent and draft picks. Plus, they will have plenty of cap space to add additional talent over the next few offseasons.

            I don't think his intention is to go into full tank mode, but rather is a 2-option re-tooling plan: Option 1 is to keep Smith and use him to lure Howard; Option 2 is to use Smith as trade bait if Howard declines.
            Smith is a free agent now isn't he? The trend as of late with free agents is that they don't agree to sign and trades so that it gives them more freedom to chose their destination. I think Ferry just let him walk which gives you an idea of what his priorities are, ie. getting under salary cap.

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            • #36
              Mediumcore wrote: View Post
              Smith is a free agent now isn't he? The trend as of late with free agents is that they don't agree to sign and trades so that it gives them more freedom to chose their destination. I think Ferry just let him walk which gives you an idea of what his priorities are, ie. getting under salary cap.
              The new CBA makes it more advantageous to wait until free agent to sign contract (3 year extension versus 4 year as UFA).

              Reportedly, Hawks offered 3 years and over $15M per season.

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              • #37
                I think the forum would be really well served if any of our cap knowledgeable people could break down picks/cap/amnesty/tpe/provisions rules re: sign and trades etc, specific to the Raptors. I think it would go a long way to informing MOST of the debates we are going to be having up until October
                For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                • #38
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  The new CBA makes it more advantageous to wait until free agent to sign contract (3 year extension versus 4 year as UFA).

                  Reportedly, Hawks offered 3 years and over $15M per season.
                  That's to whose advantage though? The player or the team? I would think Ferry's mentality is that he values the salary coming off the books more so than anything he perceives he could get for Smith if he is willing to take the chance that Smith walks. Another reason why I think ATL is going into a rebuild through the draft mode more so than a Denver type reloading of talent.

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                  • #39
                    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    How does that work?

                    Bargnani's salary will be $10.75M, which means the Raps could take back up to $13.5375M [(10.75*1.25)+0.1], but Boozer will be making $15.3M. Given that the Raps will be far over the cap, don't they need to stay within the confines of the formula?
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Sorry, amnesty Kleiza first. But even with that you are still correct. I thought the threshold was when the luxury tax implications came in... I was wrong.

                    Bargnani's trade value is actually $11.28 due to his 5% trade kicker.

                    Interesting how JL3's contract added makes up the difference. Still saves $2.5M ($6.25 salary and tax) for the Bulls which is good but more importantly sees $4.8M come off their 2014-15 payroll to sign Mirotic. JL3 was a favourite in the locker room and of Thibs, too.



                    But yeah, I was wrong on the one for one.... and I"ve said that in a few other threads.... sorry.

                    Oh, I forgot this yesterday. Boozer for Bargnani straight up if the salary cap/luxury tax rates increase by $2.07M. Larry Coon has talked about $5M increase.

                    $72.95 - current commitments
                    $68.35 - amnesty Kleiza

                    $70.3 - current luxury tax

                    $15.3 - Boozer
                    $11.28 - Bargnani after 5% trade kicker

                    $68.35 - post amnesty
                    $4.02 - difference in Boozer and Bargnani
                    $72.37 - add Boozer, minus Bargnani

                    $2.07M increase in luxury tax makes Boozer for Bargnani, one for one possible.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      Oh, I forgot this yesterday. Boozer for Bargnani straight up if the salary cap/luxury tax rates increase by $2.07M. Larry Coon has talked about $5M increase.

                      $72.95 - current commitments
                      $68.35 - amnesty Kleiza

                      $70.3 - current luxury tax

                      $15.3 - Boozer
                      $11.28 - Bargnani after 5% trade kicker

                      $68.35 - post amnesty
                      $4.02 - difference in Boozer and Bargnani
                      $72.37 - add Boozer, minus Bargnani

                      $2.07M increase in luxury tax makes Boozer for Bargnani, one for one possible.
                      Thanks for the update Matt.

                      I thought the "(outgoing salary * 1.25) + 100k" rule was in effect if the team was over the salary cap number though, as opposed to the luxury tax number (which is what your breakdown seems to imply).

                      That's why I thought that even if the Raptors were to shed the salaries of Kleiza (via amnesty), Lucas (via declined team option) and Gray (via declined player option), and if the salary/luxury tax rates were to increase, the Raps still wouldn't be able to do a straight-up Bargnani/Boozer deal.

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                      • #41
                        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        How does that work?

                        Bargnani's salary will be $10.75M, which means the Raps could take back up to $13.5375M [(10.75*1.25)+0.1], but Boozer will be making $15.3M. Given that the Raps will be far over the cap, don't they need to stay within the confines of the formula?
                        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        Thanks for the update Matt.

                        I thought the "(outgoing salary * 1.25) + 100k" rule was in effect if the team was over the salary cap number though, as opposed to the luxury tax number (which is what your breakdown seems to imply).

                        That's why I thought that even if the Raptors were to shed the salaries of Kleiza (via amnesty), Lucas (via declined team option) and Gray (via declined player option), and if the salary/luxury tax rates were to increase, the Raps still wouldn't be able to do a straight-up Bargnani/Boozer deal.
                        Yes. Stricter rules (i.e. 125% + 100K) come in if the team is already in luxury or the new salary coming in places them in luxury tax.

                        For non-taxpaying teams (again, they must be under the tax level after the trade), the salaries that can be acquired depend on the total salaries the team is trading away:

                        Non-Taxpaying

                        Teams Outgoing salary/ Maximum incoming salary
                        $0 to $9.8 million/ 150% of the outgoing salary, plus $100,0001
                        $9.8 million to $19.6 million/ The outgoing salary plus $5 million1
                        $19.6 million and up/ 125% of the outgoing salary, plus $100,000

                        Taxpaying teams can take back up to 125% of their outgoing salaries, plus $100,000, no matter how much salary the team is sending away. For example, a taxpaying team trading away $10 million in salaries can acquire one or more replacement players making up to $12.6 million.

                        Taxpaying Teams

                        Outgoing salary/ Maximum incoming salary
                        Any/ 125% of the outgoing salary, plus $100,000
                        http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q82

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                        • #42
                          blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                          Well this list IS from Bleacher Report so it should be taken with a grain of salt.

                          Other than Landry I've seen none of these posted as rumors. On message boards they have been mentioned as the types of players the Raps should be looking at, but that's it. Of the list:

                          SG/SF Mike Dunleavy Jr. - Don't think he's available (haven't heard rumors)
                          SG J.J. Redick - Can't afford
                          SF/PF Carl Landry - Intrigued
                          PG Devin Harris - Would be nice (haven't heard rumors)
                          PF/C Carlos Boozer - I doubt they can get him for Bargnani. Isn't really a fit for what the Raps need.
                          C JaVale McGee****** - No. Cool guy, but no.
                          PG/SG Jarrett Jack****** - Why? So he can be bitter that he doesn't start here?
                          PF/C Luis Scola - Most fans wish for this guy but no rumors I've seen that the Raps have asked for him.
                          I disagree re Boozer. He can defend, rebound and plays hard consistently....only draw backs are age and concerns re injury.

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                          • #43
                            psrs1 wrote: View Post
                            I disagree re Boozer. He can defend, rebound and plays hard consistently....only draw backs are age and concerns re injury.
                            He is utterly horrific on the defensive end, I don't know what you've been watching.
                            Twitter - @thekid_it

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                            • #44
                              isaacthompson wrote: View Post
                              He is utterly horrific on the defensive end, I don't know what you've been watching.
                              He's not an elite defender, but I think he's adequate. He did get a vote for the all defensive second team in 2012:
                              http://www.nba.com/2012/news/05/23/n...012/index.html

                              Other players receiving votes, with point totals (First Team votes in parentheses): Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia, 19 (4); Joakim Noah, Chicago, 14; Iman Shumpert, New York, 13 (4); Paul George, Indiana, 10 (2); Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City, 9 (2); Josh Smith, Atlanta, 8 (2); Dwyane Wade, Miami, 5 (1); Thabo Sefolosha, Oklahoma City, 5 (1); Grant Hill, Phoenix, 5 (1); Tim Duncan, San Antonio, 5 (1); Avery Bradley, Boston, 3 (1); Marc Gasol, Memphis, 3 (1); Metta World Peace, L.A. Lakers, 3; Shawn Marion, Dallas, 3; Joe Johnson, Atlanta, 2, (1); Mike Conley, Memphis, 2; Derrick Rose, Chicago, 1; Jrue Holiday, Philadelphia, 1; Carlos Boozer, Chicago, 1; Luc Mbah a Moute, Milwaukee, 1.

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                              • #45
                                planetmars wrote: View Post
                                He's not an elite defender, but I think he's adequate. He did get a vote for the all defensive second team in 2012:
                                http://www.nba.com/2012/news/05/23/n...012/index.html

                                Other players receiving votes, with point totals (First Team votes in parentheses): Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia, 19 (4); Joakim Noah, Chicago, 14; Iman Shumpert, New York, 13 (4); Paul George, Indiana, 10 (2); Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City, 9 (2); Josh Smith, Atlanta, 8 (2); Dwyane Wade, Miami, 5 (1); Thabo Sefolosha, Oklahoma City, 5 (1); Grant Hill, Phoenix, 5 (1); Tim Duncan, San Antonio, 5 (1); Avery Bradley, Boston, 3 (1); Marc Gasol, Memphis, 3 (1); Metta World Peace, L.A. Lakers, 3; Shawn Marion, Dallas, 3; Joe Johnson, Atlanta, 2, (1); Mike Conley, Memphis, 2; Derrick Rose, Chicago, 1; Jrue Holiday, Philadelphia, 1; Carlos Boozer, Chicago, 1; Luc Mbah a Moute, Milwaukee, 1.
                                There are jokers everywhere. In my memory Boozer was sitting quite often in the fourth quarter because Thibodeau didn't like his defense.

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