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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • Craiger wrote: View Post
    How do you trade up to those positions in the draft? What are these advantageous trades? Where does this team improve incrementally? Who are the players whose value will drop and are overlooked?

    What your saying is a bunch of unforeseeable events can take place if management is good, we just don't know what they are or will be. But somehow its tanking that is 'waving a wand', 'lucky', 'unpredictable', 'easy' or whatever term one wants to use.


    To re-word one of your quotes below:




    The debate isn't whats guaranteed, whats lucky, what will or won't happen. Its whats the best opportunity to success. Feel free to disagree, but don't turn the argument into something its not. That was the point in my response.
    I disagree with you Craiger, Puffer nailed it. There's already a race to the bottom and the Raptors are miles behind the Celtics, etc. Might as well become a mediocre playoff team, turn players like Demar, T-Ross, etc into nationally known playoff tested assets, and then trade one to get a higher draft pick.

    Just this week we witnessed the top 2 ranked players in the draft go around the 7th pick. You never know what happens during the NCAA season, so why join a race that you can't win? Try to win, create assets and then with a real scouting staff trade for a talent.

    Comment


    • I think tanking is a terrible idea.

      When the rest of the league zigs, we gotta zag.
      The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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      • Craiger wrote: View Post
        ...The debate isn't whats guaranteed, whats lucky, what will or won't happen. Its whats the best opportunity to success. Feel free to disagree, but don't turn the argument into something its not. That was the point in my response.

        We can agree to disagree. I think that tanking puts your fate in the hands of chance...you might call it taking a calculated risk. Taking the other route, where you work hard to improve your assets, try to manage smart, get through the next couple of years trying to win and shedding the bad contracts and drafting smart so you DO have assets when it is time to make a push just seems like you are taking more control of your future. Of course it isn't guaranteed either, but I think the basketball will be more enjoyable to watch.

        I am getting tired of turning off the TV set in disgust, though I have had more fun the last couple of years than the two before them.

        Comment


        • Puffer wrote: View Post
          We can agree to disagree. I think that tanking puts your fate in the hands of chance...you might call it taking a calculated risk. Taking the other route, where you work hard to improve your assets, try to manage smart, get through the next couple of years trying to win and shedding the bad contracts and drafting smart so you DO have assets when it is time to make a push just seems like you are taking more control of your future.
          Of course, what you're forgetting is that everything in sports management is calculated risk. DeMar could never find his shot, Rudy's eye problem could get worse, JoVal could break his leg at the start of the season and be out of basketball forever.

          Tanking is a relatively knowable risk in that you have a good idea of what you're tanking for: a prized rookie contract (or more than one) that has intrinsic value around the league and where you have a reasonably good, albeit imperfect, idea of what the player's level is. It's frankly a lot more certain than assuming inherent player improvement, which is what the anti-tank faction seems to be asserting will happen.

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          • magoon wrote: View Post
            Of course, what you're forgetting is that everything in sports management is calculated risk. ...Tanking is a relatively knowable risk in that you have a good idea of what you're tanking for: a prized rookie contract (or more than one) that has intrinsic value around the league and where you have a reasonably good, albeit imperfect, idea of what the player's level is. It's frankly a lot more certain than assuming inherent player improvement, which is what the anti-tank faction seems to be asserting will happen.
            We can agree to disagree about this. Raptors after all have had a #1 pick. Go through the number one picks of the last 15 years and count the flameouts, not to mention the players who never became franchise players. Then count the number of guys picked in the top 5. How many of them turned into franchise talents? Now how many all stars came from picks #8 and lower?

            A lot of top five picks paid off for their teams. But the Raps have had two #4 picks that paid off for a while then left the franchise in worse shape then before. So much for knowable risk. But if I am working with a guy every day, and that guy is putting in the work, I know that guy is going to get better. And if he is unwilling to work, I'm trading his ass and finding someone who is willing to buy in and commit.

            Comment


            • Puffer wrote: View Post
              We can agree to disagree about this. Raptors after all have had a #1 pick. Go through the number one picks of the last 15 years and count the flameouts, not to mention the players who never became franchise players. Then count the number of guys picked in the top 5. How many of them turned into franchise talents? Now how many all stars came from picks #8 and lower?

              A lot of top five picks paid off for their teams. But the Raps have had two #4 picks that paid off for a while then left the franchise in worse shape then before. So much for knowable risk. But if I am working with a guy every day, and that guy is putting in the work, I know that guy is going to get better. And if he is unwilling to work, I'm trading his ass and finding someone who is willing to buy in and commit.
              Interesting that you bring up this point, as I remember reading an interesting Tweet from one of the guys on ESPN last week, who brought up a quirky stat about #1 overall picks. Since 1986, only 2 #1 overall draft picks have ever won the NBA championship with the team that drafted them - David Robinson & Tim Duncan.

              Even if the Raptors manage to successfully tank next season AND get lucky in the draft lottery, it's still far from even being in the same ballpark as a guarantee, that long-term success - let alone an NBA championship - will come the Raptors' way. Food for thought for the pro-tankers out there.

              Comment


              • Is "tanking" only reserved for the #1 selection? That is a fools choice with the lottery process...which was precisely put in place to make it a non-guarantee. One would be better off kidnapping Gilbert's son and having him represent your team at the lottery. In a draft such as the 2014 the only sane and logical strategy for a team like the Raptors is to take the road Boston is doing...putting your team in the best position to draft high with a selection of picks not just next year but the next 4 years. That is a strategy not a tanking. The rules of the NBA force this process to be considered. Getting a pick in the top 3-4 will net any team a very good player. I of course prefer this course because of the opinion what we have is not a very good collection of assets and one of our youngest is also one with a very good ceiling (JV). If the Bledsoe rumors are true MU thinks so too...he is willing to ultimately let Lowry go.

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                • Bendit wrote: View Post
                  One would be better off kidnapping Gilbert's son and having him represent your team at the lottery.
                  HAH Nominate this for Quote of the year.

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                  • Josh Lewenberg ‏@JLew1050 5m
                    "Have heard that amnestying Bargnani, at least for now, is off the table for Raps. Multiple teams have expressed interest in trading for him"


                    Excellent

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                    • Barg close to being dealt to New York for Camby, Novak, 1st rd pick and a 2nd rd pick!!

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                      • Holly MacKenzie ‏@stackmack 2m:
                        RT @HowardBeckNYT: Knicks appear close to acquiring Andrea Bargnani from Toronto. NY offering Camby, Novak, 2 picks (1st rd/2nd rd).

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                        • Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
                          Barg close to being dealt to New York for Camby, Novak, 1st rd pick and a 2nd rd pick!!
                          You're joking!

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                          • brickwall281 wrote: View Post
                            You're joking!
                            It's all over twitter. it's pretty close to happening

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                            • Raptor_11 wrote: View Post
                              Holly MacKenzie ‏@stackmack 2m:
                              RT @HowardBeckNYT: Knicks appear close to acquiring Andrea Bargnani from Toronto. NY offering Camby, Novak, 2 picks (1st rd/2nd rd).
                              2 picks for Bargs, and a shooting specialist? That would be a pretty good deal.

                              Comment


                              • Also one of the better opportunities for Bargs. Good pairing with Chandler. Can actually play at the 3 pt line, delivering entry passes to Melo in the post and waiting for kickouts. Can play the pick and pop with Felton.

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