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Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

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  • Primer wrote: View Post
    Leonard was not a lotto pick. Leonard went 15th.

    Marc was a 2nd round pick (18th). You saying we should get lotto picks so we can later trade them for 2nd rounders?

    For all this talk of Cleveland, the Raptors were still better than them this year. I'll believe that what Cleveland is doing is smart when they actually win more games than they lose. No idea why people are lauding them when the results say otherwise.
    You do realize that the Cavs are basically losing on purpose for now, right? They've set themselves up to have 5 or 6 lottery picks all under the age of 24 hit their stride around the same time that they'll have tens of millions in cap space to add pieces to the core as well.

    I would trade situations with the Cavs in a nanosecond.

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    • Apollo wrote: View Post
      You're contradicting yourself. One paragraph you're saying you're not prepared for 3-4 years of losing, the next you're saying you prefer the Cavs situation and essentially you're bummed that the Raptors will probably make the playoffs next year. You can't have both. You can't be in the Cavs' current situation without doing what they did.

      That doesn't mean you can't get to where they want to go by doing it another way.

      I don't envy the Cavs. They were perennial losers for years prior to LBJ and they've been losers since. I do want the Raptors to get to the same position that they're trying to get to however...
      I haven't contradicted myself at all.

      I'm not prepared to blow it up now, but 2-3 years ago it should have been done. Maybe even sooner than that. You've been against blowing it up because it's your opinion that the Raptors have tried before and it failed. My argument is that we've never tried, and that blowing it up and rebuilding does work when applied properly.

      To embolden my point, I quoted your own words regarding the doubts you had about Cleveland's moves two years ago. Fast forward two years later and they're in a far more desirable position than we are.
      your pal,
      ebrian

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      • I still don't like Cleveland and I don't think they are in a better position. We'll have to see in a few years.

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        • ebrian wrote: View Post
          I haven't contradicted myself at all.

          I'm not prepared to blow it up now, but 2-3 years ago it should have been done. Maybe even sooner than that. You've been against blowing it up because it's your opinion that the Raptors have tried before and it failed. My argument is that we've never tried, and that blowing it up and rebuilding does work when applied properly.
          Not blowing it up works when performed correctly.

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          • Soft Euro wrote: View Post
            I still don't like Cleveland and I don't think they are in a better position. We'll have to see in a few years.
            Honestly outside of Kyrie and maybe Thompson their future is full of mediocre to below average draft picks. I'm not including Varejao because i think he might get moved. Dion Waiters is basically Rodney Stucky 2.0, and Zeller is a very bad finisher (worse than his brother) and he shoots a garbage percentage from the floor. If they pick Mclemore they might be able to move Waiters and fill the SG position long term. But if they seriously think that they are done rebuilding then they must be out of their damn mind.

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            • I wouldn't call Cleveland's situaiton better than Toronto's...probably wouldn't call it worse either...but I don't see anything that suggests that they are on a path to sustainable winning. They have on top tier talent....a shoot-first PG with fragility concerns who doesn't play D, and does a shit (really shit) job getting his teammates involved at the moment.

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              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                I wouldn't call Cleveland's situaiton better than Toronto's...probably wouldn't call it worse either...but I don't see anything that suggests that they are on a path to sustainable winning. They have on top tier talent....a shoot-first PG with fragility concerns who doesn't play D, and does a shit (really shit) job getting his teammates involved at the moment.
                I'm calling it worse, easily. They have atleast 2 more seasons to go before they even think about the playoffs

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                • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                  I'm calling it worse, easily. They have atleast 2 more seasons to go before they even think about the playoffs
                  Right...but in those 2 seasons...Toronto could make the playoffs in both, and then have nothing to build with beyond that except JV. So I think the long-term outlook (beyond the next season or two) is equally cloudy for both teams.

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                  • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                    Honestly outside of Kyrie and maybe Thompson their future is full of mediocre to below average draft picks. I'm not including Varejao because i think he might get moved. Dion Waiters is basically Rodney Stucky 2.0, and Zeller is a very bad finisher (worse than his brother) and he shoots a garbage percentage from the floor. If they pick Mclemore they might be able to move Waiters and fill the SG position long term. But if they seriously think that they are done rebuilding then they must be out of their damn mind.
                    Who said they were done rebuilding?

                    They're going to add the first and 19th overall picks this year to the crop of Irving (the best player on either roster), Thompson, Zeller, and Waiters (who was quietly one of the best rookies in the league last year by the way). They're also in line to have a top five pick in the loaded 2014 draft, and are owed three other first rounders (Grizzlies, Kings and Heat) between 2014 and 15. They have roughly $20 million in cap space this summer, and another $10 million plus coming off the books the summer after that. They have a big trade piece (Varajeo) that will likely net them more prospects/picks when they trade him this summer or next season. They have so much flexibility right now it's unbelievable; young prospects, tradeable assets, more draft picks then they know what to do with and real salary cap flexibility. This is far from a finished product.

                    Whether or not it all turns into a contender remains to be seen but they've nailed the first few steps. I'd rather have the Cavs options and high ceiling moving forward opposed to the Raptors crossing their fingers and hoping that numerous dominoes fall in their direction so they can maybe grab the 6th seed next year.

                    I understand it's a debate that will take another couple of years to come to a conclusion on, but I think the fact that the Raptors went "all in" this year in terms of trading away future considerations for the now, and still only won 10 more games than a Cleveland team that was trying to lose is awfully telling.
                    Last edited by Fully; Fri May 24, 2013, 12:37 PM.

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                    • Fully wrote: View Post
                      Who said they were done rebuilding?

                      They're going to add the first and 19th overall picks this year to the crop of Irving (the best player on either roster), Thompson, Zeller, and Waiters (who was quietly one of the best rookies in the league last year by the way). They're also in line to have a top five pick in the loaded 2014 draft, and are owed three other first rounders (Grizzlies, Kings and Heat) between 2014 and 15. They have roughly $20 million in cap space this summer, and another $10 million plus coming off the books the summer after that. They have a big trade piece (Varajeo) that will likely net them more prospects/picks when they trade him this summer or next season. They have so much flexibility right now it's unbelievable; young prospects, tradeable assets, more draft picks then they know what to do with and real salary cap flexibility. This is far from a finished product.

                      Whether or not it all turns into a contender remains to be seen but they've nailed the first few steps. I'd rather have the Cavs options and high ceiling moving forward opposed to the Raptors crossing their fingers and hoping that numerous dominoes fall in their direction so they can maybe grab the 6th seed next year.

                      I understand it's a debate that will take another couple of years to come to a conclusion on, but I think the fact that the Raptors went "all in" this year in terms of trading away future considerations for the now, and still only won 10 more games than a Cleveland team that was trying to lose is awfully telling.
                      Thompson wasn't a rookie this past season... and i hope you don't mean Zeller because he was god awful (8ppg, 5.7 rpg in 27 min while shooting a whooping 43% from the field). Waiters was chucking everything and he average 15 points while shooting 41% from the field, and he didn't bring anything else to the table besides scoring(which he did very poorly). So i really don't know who you are talking about when you say "one of the best rookies in the draft". Both of those two were massively overrated.

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                      • Waiters skyrocketed up the board close to draft time; Colangelo was reported as very high on him. He wasn't on the radar for most of the lead up and then he had some good workouts and suddenly was getting drafted high. Timing is everything.

                        NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                        I'm calling it worse, easily. They have atleast 2 more seasons to go before they even think about the playoffs
                        And there's no guarantee all those "stud" prospects even develop into players of championship caliber.

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                        • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                          Thompson wasn't a rookie this past season... and i hope you don't mean Zeller because he was god awful (8ppg, 5.7 rpg in 27 min while shooting a whooping 43% from the field). Waiters was chucking everything and he average 15 points while shooting 41% from the field, and he didn't bring anything else to the table besides scoring(which he did very poorly). So i really don't know who you are talking about when you say "one of the best rookies in the draft". Both of those two were massively overrated.
                          I never said TT was a rookie? I said he was part of their young core.
                          I said Waiters was quietly one of the best rookies last season and he was. Second in rookie scoring, 3rd in assists, 3rd in steals, top 10 in 3PM. He made the first team all nba for rookies. Am I missing something?

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                          • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                            I'm calling it worse, easily. They have atleast 2 more seasons to go before they even think about the playoffs
                            Actually, the plan has always been for Cleveland to be competitive in 2014-15 and I for one, expect they will be successful.

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                            • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                              Thompson wasn't a rookie this past season... and i hope you don't mean Zeller because he was god awful (8ppg, 5.7 rpg in 27 min while shooting a whooping 43% from the field). Waiters was chucking everything and he average 15 points while shooting 41% from the field, and he didn't bring anything else to the table besides scoring(which he did very poorly). So i really don't know who you are talking about when you say "one of the best rookies in the draft". Both of those two were massively overrated.
                              Zeller is not projected as a starter but rather as a rotation player. The guy can shoot when he does not hesitate. He badly needs some muscle to defend the post and some confidence to trust his instincts. I think he will be fine as a primary backup center.

                              Waiters went into shooting frenzy at times, especially when he felt he needed the be scorer when Kyrie was not on the court. His shooting form is not consistent at this time. Waiters can be a primary ball handler, he can create his own shot, and he has the lateral speed to become a good defender. I'm very high on him and would not be surprised if he becomes a minor star in two years. He was certainly one of the best rookies in the draft.

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                              • Apollo wrote: View Post
                                And there's no guarantee all those "stud" prospects even develop into players of championship caliber.
                                That is correct - and Zeller is certainly not a stud. However, while I think the Raptors are currently better, I believe the Cavaliers have a higher potential ceiling, key word is potential.

                                The Raptors will have to make several moves if they are to become better than just a 1st or 2nd round team. Lots of retooling needed in my opinion and difficult too do so because of their current salary situation.

                                The Cavaliers can add players to their core group via the draft (or via trading of these draft picks) and via free agency. I believe that path has more possibilities.

                                One thing I like about the Cavaliers is they stuck to the plan.

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