Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rebuild or Re-tool? (thread merge in post #358)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    One can't "wish for losing" and call himself a Fan. A Fan ALWAYS wishes success.

    Fans who wish to take a step back to take two steps forward, look at the LONG TERM. Not to say that Fans who like other philosophies are not Fans. We all love our Raptors, don't we?
    You clearly said you want them to get rid of players who can help them win games. You clearly said you want them to tank to get higher draft picks. Tanking is losing on purpose, intentionally putting a poor product on the floor to sink in the standings.

    Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    That is a little harsh isn't it? Nobody wants to be in this position and want to lose, but those like myself whom consider a reubild as the best option and feel the draft is the best way to do it consider tanking is the only option. You could be the Clippers on year, hit it big on Blake Griffin and have elite players like CP3 wanting to sign an extension with you the next year, so I'm not too concerned about the perception of losing. Players like fans have a short memory and will come back in droves once we find success.
    I don't think it's harsh. The Raptors have far bigger barriers in their way to sustained success than hitting it rich in the draft. They're never going to be able to hang onto those players even if they do work out because the team is the laughing stock of the league. They've stunk for most of their existence and so you're dealing with an image that is cemented in the minds of a generation who grew up on the Raptors being a pathetic franchise.

    Ujiri is probably the best fit for the Raptors in the league because he's proven he can win without stars and in a smaller, less reputable market. Hitting it rich in the draft is not required right now. Their best path is building a good reputation starting right now and not hacking off limbs in a hope to plunge deep into the basement. Because if they tank and fail, we're in the same boat again in five years; it's more likely that they don't hit it rich in the draft.

    I'd rather see them make the playoffs for the next five years, and cement themselves as a legitimate destination, a competent organization, than have them wallow around in basement for three to five more years and more likely than not end up full circle.

    And the Raptors weren't a high profile FA destination even with V.C. in his prime being compared to M.J. They had to overpay just to keep that team together, which failed.

    Comment


    • Apollo wrote: View Post
      So you want the Raptors to dump some of their current assets to lose a bunch of games so that you can watch losing basketball for the next five years
      Only ONE year but stink as badly as possible.
      Attitude Is A Choice.

      Comment


      • Apollo wrote: View Post
        You clearly said you want them to get rid of players who can help them win games. You clearly said you want them to tank to get higher draft picks. Tanking is losing on purpose, intentionally putting a poor product on the floor to sink in the standings.
        Get rid of players who help win a FEW games now so we can acquire players who can win MANY games later.
        Attitude Is A Choice.

        Comment


        • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
          That is a little harsh isn't it? Nobody wants to be in this position and want to lose, but those like myself whom consider a reubild as the best option and feel the draft is the best way to do it consider tanking is the only option. You could be the Clippers on year, hit it big on Blake Griffin and have elite players like CP3 wanting to sign an extension with you the next year, so I'm not too concerned about the perception of losing. Players like fans have a short memory and will come back in droves once we find success.
          First, I think the 3rd option that Tim L. mentioned allows for the team to retool (including via the draft) while also maintaining their competitiveness. I don't believe that strategy automatically means the team is destinted to be a 'treadmill team' like some are suggesting. I think that option comes with the expectation that the talent level and competitiveness is ever improving/increasing, otherwise the entire strategy is being poorly executed (that's what leads to a 'treadmill team').

          Second, I think the reason the 'anti-tanking group' have a problem with an all-out 'tanking' strategy is that there's nothing guaranteed that it's going to work at all, let alone any better than other strategies. I was all for 'tanking' 2 seasons ago, while JV was still in Europe; I think it made sense to do so while our best young asset wasn't even yet on the team. However, I don't think 'tanking' makes sense now, for several reasons (other teams also tanking for 2014 draft, no guarantee tanking will result in Raptors finishing bottom-3 in standings, no gaurantee of a top-3 pick regardless of place in standings, no gaurantee top-3 draft pick will wind up being any better than guys like JV/TR/DD etc...). It's a legit strategy, but I think us anti-tankers just get irked when people talk about 'tanking' as a can't miss, sure thing strategy for landing the next LBJ/Durant/Blake/Irving etc...

          Comment


          • Come on, no one is explicitly wishing the Raptors to lose. You act like we're breaking up a 55 win team on a whim just to try and hit the jackpot in the lottery.

            The team is NOT ANY GOOD. They finished 14 games under .500 last year, and that includes a stretch of games near the end of the year where we beat up on teams that had stopped trying. There's no draft pick this summer. No cap room. Very few tradeable assets unless you're subtracting a large piece from the core.

            Some of us are just being realistic that the best course of action to turn this real-life, current incarnation of the Raptors into a championship contending squad is to completely blow up this mismatch of overpaid and redundant talent. "Tinkering" is not going to cause this team to win an extra 20+ games over the next two years.

            Edit: And for the last time, no one is saying that tanking guarantees success! But "staying the course" doesn't either! Most of you seem to admit that one of the worst case scenario's of a rebuild would be to end up with a roster on par with what we have now... Then why are you so attached to it?
            Last edited by Fully; Wed Jun 5, 2013, 02:17 PM.

            Comment


            • Fully wrote: View Post
              Come on, no one is explicitly wishing the Raptors to lose.
              If you support the process of slashing the team apart with the intent of plummeting down the standings(aka. losing) to increase the chances of winning a high pick then yeah, you are.

              Tanking = Losing, come on guys...

              Fully wrote: View Post
              Some of us are just being realistic that the best course of action to turn this real-life, current incarnation of the Raptors into a championship contending squad is to completely blow up this mismatch of overpaid and redundant talent. "Tinkering" is not going to cause this team to win an extra 20+ games over the next two years.
              I'm not suggesting they "tinker", I'm suggesting that the keep what works and go from there. Being close to luxury tax is an advantage, it's just depends on your perspective and your plan to grow the team. The draft is just one piece to the puzzle and you don't build your whole plan around that one piece being a home run; putting all your eggs in one basket.

              Comment


              • Fully wrote: View Post
                I'm done repeating myself. At this point, we'll have to see how it plays out. I am confident that most of you will eventually end up in the same place as me - because quite frankly, that's usually what happens around here.

                The last thing I will say is that you are way, way off on Bogut. He averaged 6 points and 7 rebounds this year and missed 50 games with injury. He missed over 50 games the previous season before. He is not a "highly productive" centre anymore as his stats have been in decline for three seasons and counting, plus he's one of the most injury prone players in the league. There's no way he comes close to a $15 million salary again next summer and I think he'd be lucky to get $7.5 million. If he has another injury filled season next year then he may not exceed $5 million. All of the offers will likely be 2-3 years because of the injury risk.
                You are saying same thing over and over because you are arguing over specifics. Fine, the GSW trade won't happen... None of it will happen. It doesn't mean the concept can't be followed.

                As for Bogut, we'll see but there is always a premium on tented C's and you only need to look back three seasons to see how quick a talented big can turn around injuries and career (Tyson chandler) to land a huge contract.

                Comment


                • Fully wrote: View Post
                  Edit: And for the last time, no one is saying that tanking guarantees success! But "staying the course" doesn't either! Most of you seem to admit that one of the worst case scenario's of a rebuild would be to end up with a roster on par with what we have now... Then why are you so attached to it?
                  I am pretty sure they ain't staying the course. I am positive that the goal, in the short term, is going to be accumulating as many assets as possible (picks, young players, good contracts, expirings). If they can stay competitive while doing that, then that's awesome. Best of both worlds. If not, then, that's fine, too. It will look what he did in Denver. He doesn't have Melo but he has assets that might bring back multiple pieces.

                  EDIT: Point being, the more assets that are here the easier building around them is or, alternatively, the possibility of a Harden-type trade opens up. The Morey example shouldn't be discounted. The Rockets were completely dismantled but never went full-on Charlotte/Cleveland tank mode. Denver rebuilt the same way via the Melo trade.
                  Last edited by slaw; Wed Jun 5, 2013, 02:38 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Forget "rebuilding" or "re-tooling". The Raptors should "re-hash" or "re-jig".

                    It's all semantics, my friends. What this team needs to do is win games.

                    Comment


                    • Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                      Get rid of players who help win a FEW games now so we can acquire players who can win MANY games later.
                      So who are the players you are proposing they add to win the "MANY" games?

                      slaw wrote: View Post
                      I am pretty sure they ain't staying the course. I am positive that the goal, in the short term, is going to be accumulating as many assets as possible (picks, young players, good contracts, expirings). If they can stay competitive while doing that, then that's awesome. Best of both worlds. If not, then, that's fine, too. It will look what he did in Denver. He doesn't have Melo but he has assets that might bring back multiple pieces.
                      I agree with all this, only I'd add that if they can keep spending close tax threshold by working said expirings for better players that other teams are looking to unload to play the tanking game then that's much better in my books. To me, having an extra $12M to spend is a more favorable situation.

                      Comment


                      • slaw wrote: View Post
                        I am pretty sure they ain't staying the course. I am positive that the goal, in the short term, is going to be accumulating as many assets as possible (picks, young players, good contracts, expirings). If they can stay competitive while doing that, then that's awesome. Best of both worlds. If not, then, that's fine, too. It will look what he did in Denver. He doesn't have Melo but he has assets that might bring back multiple pieces.

                        EDIT: Point being, the more assets that are here the easier building around them is or, alternatively, the possibility of a Harden-type trade opens up. The Morey example shouldn't be discounted. The Rockets were completely dismantled but never went full-on Charlotte/Cleveland tank mode. Denver rebuilt the same way via the Melo trade.
                        Your posts are much better on my computer than on my iPhone.

                        Comment


                        • Apollo wrote: View Post
                          So who are the players you are proposing they add to win the "MANY" games?
                          Before this becomes confusing, I was simply answering a question.

                          The team that we have now is a 'borderline play-off team'. I was behind BC and Co. on this "rebuilding process'. Since it's not BC and Co. anymore ,I'm suggesting a "tank". Can Ujiri takeover BC's roster, make some alterations and field a competitive team? 100% he can. He did it in Denver and did it successfully. Only thing is, like in Denver he'd do with a bunch of mediocre to good players, the closest to an all-star being Rudy Gay.

                          Another way to do it is dismantle the team and start afresh. Advantages to this are clearing cap space, accumulating a bunch a draft picks including a 'good early pick'. Considering the 2014 draft is a "good talent filled one", the process will take no more than a year. To 'anti tankers' who claim that tanking does not guarantee a top 3 pick, I totally agree. My point is, it's still worth it.

                          To answer your question "which players I'm proposing?", no player specifically. It would depend entirely on the circumstances when Raps. are ready to build(not rebuild). All I'm suggesting is that they CREATE such a situation.
                          Last edited by Eric Akshinthala; Wed Jun 5, 2013, 04:03 PM.
                          Attitude Is A Choice.

                          Comment


                          • Again i really think it depends on what the goal is. If the end game is to be a perennial playoff team like: Denver, Indiana, or Atlanta, then tanking is absolutely unnecessary and would be a complete waste of time. Lets be clear though, these teams are not winning a championship anytime soon (ya Indiana pushed Miami to seven games, but I personally think that was due to Miami players outside of Lebron James not showing up to play).

                            If the goal is actually to win a championship I think you have to blow it up and tank, especially with this upcoming draft. Retooling and making lateral moves is not going to make this team significantly better, unless you believe we have a future MVP in our current roster.

                            It really depends on what you want. Do you want to be a team like Denver or Atlanta who have been to 9 and 6 straight playoff appearances respectively, with no bright spot of winning a championship? or do you want to be a team that has a legitimate shot of winning a championship, due to drafting that future MVP?

                            Comment


                            • This should help everyone make a retool plan that might be similar to Ujiri's.

                              From the Devlin interview with Ujiri it sounds like we're going to make some trades that will be a temporary step back for the team. Likely to bring in younger assets and draft picks, since Ujiri mentioned in his press conference that the team needs to be developing younger players on the end of the bench, and we currently have no picks this year. In my eyes, the guys most likely to be dealt are:

                              Bargs, Gay, Fields, Lowry, and Kleiza (possibly Lucas if we pick up his option).

                              I'll assume Masai is trying to build a team with at least one developing young player at the 2nd or 3rd string slot. Let's see what holes we have to fill.

                              PG: Lowry, Open, Open
                              SG: Derozan, Ross, Open
                              SF: Gay, Fields, Kleiza
                              PF: Amir, Bargs, Acy
                              C: Valanciunas, Gray, Open

                              PG has serious depth issues, and Lowry is one of our most attractive trade pieces, so the PG position is one that will definitely be getting some new blood, and could be all new players next year.

                              SG: Looks good. A player entering his prime in DD. A young developing player in Ross, and an open slot that should be filled with a veteran 3pt shooting / defensive specialist (if not both, at least one or the other).

                              SF: This position needs some work. Gay is in his prime but takes up a ton of salary and is also one of our most attractive trade pieces. Fields is either the player we had this past season, a below average veteran who lost his shooting stroke, or possibly a rejuvenated veteran who does a little bit of everything. If he becomes the latter, then he's ok. If not, he's got to go. Either way I see Ujiri holding on to him for a while in the hope his stock rises. Kleiza is expiring so he will be a nice trade add on to aid in the movement of some of our other guys. No matter what his presence needs to be replaced with a young developing player since we don't have one here.

                              PF: Bargs is dead man walking, and ideally Amir is slid over to the backup slot, being replaced by a player entering or just before his prime. Acy is perfect as the developing young talent.

                              C: JV gives you that oh so nice combo of being a very solid starter, in addition to being a developing young talent. 2 birds, 1 stone. Gray is perfect as the veteran presence. Bonus points for being large enough to body up on anyone in the NBA. At least get the opposing center tired while JV rests on the bench. What we're missing is another young talent to develop in the third string slot.

                              Biggest needs in order:

                              Starting PF at or near his prime.
                              Backup and 3rd string PG, possibly a new starter if Lowry is dealt.
                              Young developing talent at SF.
                              A veteran 3rd string at SG.
                              Another young developing talent at C.

                              Now for an example. Since Cleveland has been the hot rumor as a trade partner for Gay, let's see what a trade might look like.

                              To Cleveland:
                              Rudy gay

                              To Toronto:
                              Anderson Varejao
                              The Kings 2014 first round draft pick (top 12 protected in 2014, top 10 protected in 2015 and 2016, otherwise a 2nd round pick in 2017)
                              Orlando Magic 2014 second round pick

                              This trade solves 3 problems and creates 1. We fix our starting PF problem with Varejao, who had a breakout season last year and was actually slightly more effective at PF both offensively and defensively according to 82games.com. Varejao has a reasonable salary and is signed through 2014/15. A rotation of JV, Varejao, and Amir would be scary good.
                              We also pick up 2 high draft picks in a good draft (although the Kings pick might come later, the Orlando pick is sure to be high 2nd round). We could use those to fix our young developing talent at either C, SF, or PG, depending on BPA.
                              Unfortunately we lose our starting SF, and with a shaky backup in Fields, we'd need to find a new starter.

                              To Charlotte:
                              Andrea Bargnani

                              To Toronto:
                              Ben Gordon
                              Bobcats 2014 second round pick

                              This trade gets us another high second round pick in 2014, rids us of Bargs, and also brings in a veteran presence for one season at PG/SG. Gordon can nail the 3pter so he'll help in that regard, and its just for a season anyways. If we could get Charlotte to send us the top 12 protected Blazers 2014 first round pick instead of the 2nd rounder, that would be even better.

                              To Toronto:
                              Jameer Nelson
                              Moe Harkless
                              Orlando 2014 protected 1st round draft pick (top 14 2014, top 10 2015, top 8 2016, unprotected 2017)

                              This trade gets us a young developing SF in Harkless, and a replacement for Lowry at starting PG (although Nelson is a downgrade, he'd be fine for a young developing guy to learn behind and then take over for). It also nets us another future draft pick. Orlando has to throw in the draft pick to sweeten the deal for taking on Nelson's contract and giving them the upgrade at PG that they desire. Kleiza is just an expiring contract throw in.

                              2013 team after all the trades:

                              PG: Nelson, Gordon (or Open), Open
                              SG: Derozan, Ross, Gordon (or Open)
                              SF: Fields, Harkless, Open
                              PF: Varejao, Amir, Acy
                              C: Valanciunas, Gray, Open

                              Draft picks acquired:
                              Sacramento Kings 2014 first round draft pick (top 12 protected in 2014, top 10 in 2015 and 2016, or a 2nd round pick in 2017)
                              Orlando Magic 2014 1st round draft pick (top 14 protected 2014, top 10 protected in 2015, top 8 2016, unprotected 2017)
                              Orlando Magic 2014 second round pick
                              Charlotte Bobcats 2014 second round pick

                              This team would take a bit of a step back, especially depending on the play of Fields and Harkless at SF. The only position we'd get immediately better at would be PF with the addition of Varejao and subtraction on Bargnani. The subtraction of Gay frees up a bunch more shots for JV and Varejao, whom I expect to take about 15 and 12 shots per game respectively. I don't think this team plays much worse than the 2012 team, which puts it in a nice place to build through the 2014 draft with all of their newly acquired picks. We would have 3 second round picks (we already have the Kings 2014 second round pick), and up to 3 first round picks (though likely just one).

                              I'm interested to see what everyone thinks and what some other ideas are.
                              Last edited by Primer; Wed Jun 5, 2013, 05:12 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                                Another way to do it is dismantle the team and start afresh. Advantages to this are clearing cap space, accumulating a bunch a draft picks including a 'good early pick'. Considering the 2014 draft is a "good talent filled one", the process will take no more than a year. To 'anti tankers' who claim that tanking does not guarantee a top 3 pick, I totally agree. My point is, it's still worth it.
                                Eric, you cheer for a team that history says most NBA players don't want to play for unless they're the highest bidder. So I ask you genuinely, how is it advantageous to get under cap?

                                I would argue that most of the weak teams resort to blowing it up and starting over because they're not good enough to do it the other way and tanking is a cop out. The whole reason they're blowing it up is because they don't know how to build a good team or don't have good enough judgement to find someone who does. I don't want to see another cop out; a free pass to lose for the next three to five seasons and then if it fails they can start all over because hey, it didn't work and blowing it up to tank for lotto balls works, right?

                                Secondly, why can't he simply make trades to acquire picks in the draft? Why is it best to gut the team and lose a bunch of games? There are other ways to get picks if drafting a prospect makes sense. There could be guys high on Ujiri's board who aren't even in the top ten of mock drafts for all we know.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X