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If Cavs are looking to move top pick, Gay for #1?

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  • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    People just stop this isn't going to happen.
    you don't think that if Ujiri, after all the due diliegence is done and he figures out the team is broken, wouldn't blow up the roster?
    For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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    • thead wrote: View Post
      you don't think that if Ujiri, after all the due diliegence is done and he figures out the team is broken, wouldn't blow up the roster?
      Bring Casey back. Having dinner with Rudy Gay and Coach. The Coach saying he want Rudy to average 25 next year. Really doesn't sound like his going to blow it up(well at least not this summer). Might make a couple tweaks to the roster.
      @Chr1st1anL

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      • What I don't get is why people are so eager to gut the team or trade any of the better players on our team for a pick in this consensus atrocious draft.

        It's certainly not worth the assets to go after the #1 pick. Shop dead weight for picks of teams who don't want to pay guaranteed money or have multiple picks. The cost of a low-1st rder, for instance, might be even lower than usual given the weakness of the draft. But the cost of a top 5 (or even top 10) pick is pretty much always high, no matter the strength of the draft.

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        • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
          What I don't get is why people are so eager to gut the team or trade any of the better players on our team for a pick in this consensus atrocious draft.

          It's certainly not worth the assets to go after the #1 pick. Shop dead weight for picks of teams who don't want to pay guaranteed money or have multiple picks. The cost of a low-1st rder, for instance, might be even lower than usual given the weakness of the draft. But the cost of a top 5 (or even top 10) pick is pretty much always high, no matter the strength of the draft.
          The draft is lacking star power but full of solid players.... At least that is what I hear many analysts/writers/nba peeps saying

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          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
            The draft is lacking star power but full of solid players.... At least that is what I hear many analysts/writers/nba peeps saying
            Shouldn't this be the best argument to avoid the lottery like the plague though? Why trade your current star for the lowest potential 1st overall pick in years? Why not just focus on getting a pick cheap later in the draft?

            I didn't say we shouldn't trade into the draft, but trading away good players for picks in basically the highest-risk draft of all time seems like the absolute worst way to go about rebuilding properly.

            Since it is a deep draft, the front office should be focusing on getting a pick for a player that isn't in the team's future plans anyway. Bargs is an obvious candidate. Maybe Gray, Lucas, Kleiza, AA.....None of these guys will net us a top 10 pick...but I can see a late 1st or some kind of 2nd rounder being a possibility. In this draft, I'd prefer that kind of pick. Try to draft a niche player or a draft-and-stash project.

            *Also, they say that shit every single year...regardless of star power, all drafts always suddenly become deep in the last month or two leading up to them. There are always some solid pieces in the draft, considering the vast majority of NBA players are drafted. The question is more what is a pick worth in this draft? If the ceiling of most guys in this draft is role player, then it's certainly not worth a significant asset.
            Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jun 20, 2013, 08:18 AM.

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            • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
              *Also, they say that shit every single year...regardless of star power, all drafts always suddenly become deep in the last month or two leading up to them. There are always some solid pieces in the draft, considering the vast majority of NBA players are drafted. The question is more what is a pick worth in this draft? If the ceiling of most guys in this draft is role player, then it's certainly not worth a significant asset.
              Exactly they say it every single year, and every single there are players you wish you had on your team throughout the WHOLE first round not just the lottery, and sometimes even in the 2nd round. .

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              • Noooooooo u slothbag
                TORONTO RAPTORS TORONTO RAPTORS TORONTO RAPTORS TORONTO RAPTORS TORONTO RAPTORS TORONTO RAPTORS TORONTO RAPTORS #tradeBargnani..

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                • Dino4life wrote: View Post
                  Exactly they say it every single year, and every single there are players you wish you had on your team throughout the WHOLE first round not just the lottery, and sometimes even in the 2nd round. .
                  Yep...and when the top team is reluctant/unwilling to use the #1 pick, that's a horrible sign. It's a bad sign for the whole top of the lottery, even, and also means that the draft could get really muddled/chaotic. Keep away...use a later pick on somebody, and hope it works out.

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                  • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                    Yep...and when the top team is reluctant/unwilling to use the #1 pick, that's a horrible sign. It's a bad sign for the whole top of the lottery, even, and also means that the draft could get really muddled/chaotic. Keep away...use a later pick on somebody, and hope it works out.
                    Which could lead us to having an even better pick in the loaded 2014 draft. Trading Gay for a Top 4 pick is the fastest way to rebuild. We add another young guy to develop who wont help us win games, but will help us win ping pong balls for next year.
                    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                    • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                      Shouldn't this be the best argument to avoid the lottery like the plague though? Why trade your current star for the lowest potential 1st overall pick in years? Why not just focus on getting a pick cheap later in the draft?

                      I didn't say we shouldn't trade into the draft, but trading away good players for picks in basically the highest-risk draft of all time seems like the absolute worst way to go about rebuilding properly.

                      Since it is a deep draft, the front office should be focusing on getting a pick for a player that isn't in the team's future plans anyway. Bargs is an obvious candidate. Maybe Gray, Lucas, Kleiza, AA.....None of these guys will net us a top 10 pick...but I can see a late 1st or some kind of 2nd rounder being a possibility. In this draft, I'd prefer that kind of pick. Try to draft a niche player or a draft-and-stash project.

                      *Also, they say that shit every single year...regardless of star power, all drafts always suddenly become deep in the last month or two leading up to them. There are always some solid pieces in the draft, considering the vast majority of NBA players are drafted. The question is more what is a pick worth in this draft? If the ceiling of most guys in this draft is role player, then it's certainly not worth a significant asset.
                      I might have started the thread and post a number of trade ideas, but it is for discussion and/or airing ideas.

                      Trading Gay for a high pick (or #1) is not that simple. The Raptors would also gain a lot of flexibility to do other things if they choose. Outside of JV, the Raptors have a lot of good and bad assets. Most of the good assets have a significant flaw or two that decreases their true worth.

                      I don't think any of those players you listed return a 1st or 2nd pick without taking back an undesirable contract.

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                      • Axel wrote: View Post
                        Which could lead us to having an even better pick in the loaded 2014 draft. Trading Gay for a Top 4 pick is the fastest way to rebuild. We add another young guy to develop who wont help us win games, but will help us win ping pong balls for next year.
                        That approach is fun in THEORY, this is not a game, some owner is investing hundreds of millions of dollars, so you got to make more safe decisions, look at the bobcats this will be their 4th top 10 pick in 3 years, they've moved back the last 2 years, this year they moved back 2 spots, and they are still gonna suck for the foreseeable future.

                        If stern was still around i might consider it, with the new direction of the team as canada's team, not rigging the lottery for us next year would be foolish of them, Canadian BBall hero playing for Canada's team in his prime, that's a lot of money for the league, if Wiggins lives up to the hype, Montreal might get a team when they expand for seattle.

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                        • Axel wrote: View Post
                          Which could lead us to having an even better pick in the loaded 2014 draft. Trading Gay for a Top 4 pick is the fastest way to rebuild. We add another young guy to develop who wont help us win games, but will help us win ping pong balls for next year.
                          The fastest way isn't necessarily the right way. So many people always advocate this "tanking" strategy. It is not a strategy that has worked for anybody. Not even OKC, since they never actually tanked. They never entered a season planning to lose. They entered seasons to develop young talent with an aim toward winning.

                          We are not Boston. We are not a contending team that has run its course and needs to rebuild.

                          Nor are we Charlotte. We are not a team so lacking in talent that even adding an all-star would keep us bad. If we managed to add another all-star, while we may not be contenders, we could fairly easily (within a year or two) leap over some other teams in the East not Miami, Indy or Chicago.

                          Being in the middle of the pack is the most awkward position to be in, because it presents a lot of options. But I think Toronto is not in a position to tank. We have several good young players, some who could be important pieces (of varying roles) to a good team, and some who could be used to acquire better talent or better fits.

                          For a middle of the pack team that's "falling" into tanking, think Milwaukee. Free agents, a young team, no real way to keep them competitive. If they don't tank, that's a bit crazy. I mean, with Ellis and Jennings gone, Ilyasova and Sanders become their best players, with no perimeter help whatsoever. They don't even have to make moves to tank....Just stand pat and don't try to improve. In a way, they'd tanking for the same reasons as Boston, just shedding a core that never made it as far.

                          Bottom line, the Raptors are not a team with a fading core, nor with an obviously lacking core à la Charlotte or Phoenix. Tanking is not the natural next step at all, IMO.

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                          • And you know what? I'm not even suggesting that Toronto shouldn't tank...but that it should only be done if it makes sense...

                            Toronto tank scenario:

                            -Team is more or less the same going into next year....a new PF instead of Bargs makes little difference
                            -Gay gets injured early and Lowry has a bad attitude (or also gets injured)
                            -Team thus struggles out of the gate, and mirror last year's awful start
                            -Instead of desperately trying to salvage the season, Ujiri starts making trades, starting with Lowry and his bad attitude.
                            -With no PG, the team becomes even worse....Ujiri fields offers on Ross, DeMar, Gay and Amir, not to shop them, but to see if any deal helps the team...likely that one or more get traded in such a scenario

                            -Team is left basically with little depth and talent because of circumstances, so tanking makes sense. If they can tank while Gay is injured, still develop JV and end up with a top 5, or even top 10 pick, that's great. That would be an acceptable tank scenario to me

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                            • Dino4life wrote: View Post
                              That approach is fun in THEORY, this is not a game, some owner is investing hundreds of millions of dollars, so you got to make more safe decisions, look at the bobcats this will be their 4th top 10 pick in 3 years, they've moved back the last 2 years, this year they moved back 2 spots, and they are still gonna suck for the foreseeable future.
                              This has nothing to do with being a game. We are stuck in the middle class, not good enough to make the playoffs with a cap sized roster. We have very little in flexibility or future if we stay where we are. Why not move an expensive player who is redundant with Derozan (younger & cheaper while still fairly similarly skilled) while adding a young prospect (Mclemore might slip to 4, or Trey Burke or Anthony Bennett) to develop.

                              white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                              The fastest way isn't necessarily the right way. So many people always advocate this "tanking" strategy. It is not a strategy that has worked for anybody. Not even OKC, since they never actually tanked. They never entered a season planning to lose. They entered seasons to develop young talent with an aim toward winning.

                              We are not Boston. We are not a contending team that has run its course and needs to rebuild.

                              Nor are we Charlotte. We are not a team so lacking in talent that even adding an all-star would keep us bad. If we managed to add another all-star, while we may not be contenders, we could fairly easily (within a year or two) leap over some other teams in the East not Miami, Indy or Chicago.

                              Being in the middle of the pack is the most awkward position to be in, because it presents a lot of options. But I think Toronto is not in a position to tank. We have several good young players, some who could be important pieces (of varying roles) to a good team, and some who could be used to acquire better talent or better fits.
                              I agree that the fastest way isn't necessarily the best way, but in our current situation we either scrap it now, or wait a few more years and either a) get lucky and evolve into a playoff team with our current roster or b) scrap it 3 years down the road.

                              I'm also not saying we tank. I'm saying we should remove an overpaid player who doesn't make us significantly better and acquire a young player with a high upside that we, like OKC did, could develop while hoping to win. The idea that we'd get a better pick in 2014 isn't advocating tanking, it's being realistic about this team's chances next season if we made the trade. Think about it this way, would you rather pay Rudy Gay $16M or add a Trey Burke and then maybe the #8 pick in the loaded 2014 draft? If you add Burke, then Lowry is expendable too. You could trade Lowry for a SF who can shoot the ball or for another pick in 2014.

                              We are obviously not Boston because has won games and even with their aging core, still has young studs like Rondo and Bradley to build around. Once they jettison the veterans deals, then they will have the flexibility to make further moves. We don't have an easy route to get flexibility, other than dealing away Gay for a draft pick.

                              This draft isn't the best ever, but it has a lot of quality 1-10. I really wouldn't care if they Raps got the #1 pick or the #7 pick, because they are essentially the same, but really are only options are #1 or #4. Those are the only teams picking up there that would even consider taking on Gay's contract and fit their needs. But a draft pick in a mediocre draft still gives us young talent, financial flexibility and possibly a better pick next year. We need the first 2 to be able to move forward, the 2014 pick is just icing on the cake.
                              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                              • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                                And you know what? I'm not even suggesting that Toronto shouldn't tank...but that it should only be done if it makes sense...

                                Toronto tank scenario:

                                -Team is more or less the same going into next year....a new PF instead of Bargs makes little difference
                                -Gay gets injured early and Lowry has a bad attitude (or also gets injured)
                                -Team thus struggles out of the gate, and mirror last year's awful start
                                -Instead of desperately trying to salvage the season, Ujiri starts making trades, starting with Lowry and his bad attitude.
                                -With no PG, the team becomes even worse....Ujiri fields offers on Ross, DeMar, Gay and Amir, not to shop them, but to see if any deal helps the team...likely that one or more get traded in such a scenario

                                -Team is left basically with little depth and talent because of circumstances, so tanking makes sense. If they can tank while Gay is injured, still develop JV and end up with a top 5, or even top 10 pick, that's great. That would be an acceptable tank scenario to me
                                Totally agree. Tanking is only an option if there is a significant amount of injuries.

                                Seeing as this may be the best core we've had in years, I'd like to see what this team can do with a full training camp under their belts. Add a late-1st/early-2nd round pick to the mix (preferrably a big or knock-down shooter) and I'm happy.
                                Twitter - @thekid_it

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