Bryan Colangelo Is A Baaaaad Man!

[3inthekeon]

Who knows how Bargs may have turned out if we had 905 back then as well as a better system to bring up young players. And BC did draft Demar and JV. Masai drafted Bruno...

Demar #9, JV #5, Bruno #20.

[LJ2]

Demar #9, JV #5, Bruno #20.

and?

[planetmars]

The Bargnani pick wasn't even that bad.. Colangelo's fatal flaw was in free agency. He would get these middling players and paid big money for them (Kapono, Jack, Fields, Hedo, Kleiza) or resigned guys way above their worth (Bargnani, Calderon). They killed the team's payroll and he was always swimming in quick sand. He desperately wanted a star, but then went after guys like Hedo, Rudy Gay and 40 year old Steve Nash.

He gets a lot of slack for drafting.. but he's done well there. Look at his track record in Phoenix too. That's why it sucked when he preferred giving away second rounders. If he held on to them he may have picked someone great.. and for a fraction of the cost of some veteran guy.

[MixxAOR]

BC also drafted Ed Davis and Terrence Ross

[LJ2]

BC also drafted Ed Davis and Terrence Ross

So hard to say how some of these guys could have turned out if we had the G-League back then. Was Ross around when we did?

[S.R.]

The Bargnani pick wasn't even that bad.. Colangelo's fatal flaw was in free agency. He would get these middling players and paid big money for them (Kapono, Jack, Fields, Hedo, Kleiza) or resigned guys way above their worth (Bargnani, Calderon). They killed the team's payroll and he was always swimming in quick sand. He desperately wanted a star, but then went after guys like Hedo, Rudy Gay and 40 year old Steve Nash.

He gets a lot of slack for drafting.. but he's done well there. Look at his track record in Phoenix too. That's why it sucked when he preferred giving away second rounders. If he held on to them he may have picked someone great.. and for a fraction of the cost of some veteran guy.

Yeah, this. In hindsight they were trying to quick fix the roster around Bosh for too many years, there was a constant "don't lose your star!" worry lingering around those teams. He did improve the team from what it was before he arrived, but he got stuck on a fairly middling plateau with no way to add another legit star, which is what the team really needed. Multiple top 10 picks but none of them provided the kind of immediate help that would have changed the outcome of those years.

[MixxAOR]

So hard to say how some of these guys could have turned out if we had the G-League back then. Was Ross around when we did?

We could've had our own G-league team if it wasn't for BC. and no Ross was never in 905

[planetmars]

and?

Bryan is a good drafter.. has a pretty good record with some questionable decisions (Ross over Drummond, JV over Kwahi/Walker/etc)... but you can't really compare drafting in the lottery to drafting way outside it.

Bruno may have been a fail, but Bryan never drafted out of the lottery in Toronto because his teams always sucked (well except for in 2007 where he had no pick; and 2008 where he traded it to Indiana). So we can't really see how well he would have done given Masai's position.

[Scraptor]

It is funny to me how BC was viewed as a saviour after Rob Babcock, and was basically impervious to criticism until his final couple of years. And now Masai is viewed as a saviour after BC, and is basically impervious to criticism, while BC is treated like Rob Babcock 2.0.

The reality for me is that both have done some good and some bad. Signing DeMarre Carroll for $60 million only to dump him at the cost of both our picks is a classic "BC move", and yet there was a thread here praising Masai because it allowed us to acquire CJ Miles.

And S.R. I agree with your take 100%, but I feel like this statement:

He did improve the team from what it was before he arrived, but he got stuck on a fairly middling plateau with no way to add another legit star, which is what the team really needed.

could just as easily end up being the epitaph about our current squad.

[KeonClark]

It is funny to me how BC was viewed as a saviour after Rob Babcock, and was basically impervious to criticism until his final couple of years. And now Masai is viewed as a saviour after BC, and is basically impervious to criticism, while BC is treated like Rob Babcock 2.0.

The reality for me is that both have done some good and some bad. Signing DeMarre Carroll for $60 million only to dump him at the cost of both our picks is a classic "BC move", and yet there was a thread here praising Masai because it allowed us to acquire CJ Miles.

And S.R. I agree with your take 100%, but I feel like this statement:



could just as easily end up being the epitaph about our current squad.

This team has reached much bigger heights than BC's teams ever came close to, and is still trending up. Also, BC's team crumbled like a house of cards when Bosh, a top 25 player, left. We have a team built that could survive the loss of either Demar or Kyle, both arguably top 15 players, and likely still make the playoffs.

Major differences, and I say that as someone who defends BC from some of the shit he takes. And I do agree with the sentiment that you're getting at that Masai is kind of handled with "kid gloves" by the fan base, he gets much more of a pass.

[Scraptor]

This team has reached much bigger heights than BC's teams ever came close to, and is still trending up. Also, BC's team crumbled like a house of cards when Bosh, a top 25 player, left. We have a team built that could survive the loss of either Demar or Kyle, both arguably top 15 players, and likely still make the playoffs.

Major differences, and I say that as someone who defends BC from some of the shit he takes. And I do agree with the sentiment that you're getting at that Masai is kind of handled with "kid gloves" by the fan base, he gets much more of a pass.

Masai has unquestionably done a better job of building a cohesive team than BC.

But it's odd to me that BC is a complete pariah and Masai is a messiah when 5 of the top 6 players in win shares for our squad during the Masai era were BC acquisitions (Lowry, DeMar, Jonas, Ross, Amir).

Fultz plays 76 minutes before being yanked due to injury and now he's being compared to Bargnani and let's all laugh at how stupid Colangelo is? It's just petty imo.

[KeonClark]

Masai has unquestionably done a better job of building a cohesive team than BC.

But it's odd to me that BC is a complete pariah and Masai is a messiah when 5 of the top 6 players in win shares for our squad during the Masai era were BC acquisitions (Lowry, DeMar, Jonas, Ross, Amir).

Fultz plays 76 minutes before being yanked due to injury and now he's being compared to Bargnani and let's all laugh at how stupid Colangelo is? It's just petty imo.

Agreed, BC gets over kill in the shit on department. His worst offense really was losing Bosh to free agency. If Bosh would have stayed, he probably wouldn't have traded for Rudy Gay, maybe Derozan and Lowry still develop as they are around Bosh, we can play the what if game until the cows come home.


Also: "The Pariah and the Messiah" sounds like a good book that someone should write about the last 10 years of Raptors ball

[rocwell]

Calm down. We'll talk about BC's pick in a couple years, I was just trying to make a joke about Raps ex-employee.

Anyway, about Fultz... How do you lose your all jumpshot biomechanics with that injury? It's not just biomechanical issue with his shoulder. It's everything. It doesn't make sense, somebody from the Sixers fucked him up. Search for HS freshman ball videos and you'll find similarities.

[DanH]

Masai has unquestionably done a better job of building a cohesive team than BC.

But it's odd to me that BC is a complete pariah and Masai is a messiah when 5 of the top 6 players in win shares for our squad during the Masai era were BC acquisitions (Lowry, DeMar, Jonas, Ross, Amir).

Fultz plays 76 minutes before being yanked due to injury and now he's being compared to Bargnani and let's all laugh at how stupid Colangelo is? It's just petty imo.

As ever, the issues with Colangelo were not individual moves. They were an inability to build an actual team.

He definitely had some hits, but the shitty teams he always trotted out gave him plenty of high picks to hit with. He made a couple very nice trades, and a few terrible ones.

I find it very difficult to credit BC with the team's success even a little bit, as he had all the pieces for a successful team (as evidenced by the success we've had with those pieces) and managed to put together terrible teams anyway. I mean, yay, you had 5 lotto picks in 7 years (and a borderline lotto pick you traded away, all while wasting 7 years of all-star Bosh's career earning those lotto picks every year) and you managed to get some decent players with those picks. Huzzah. You also managed to use those lotto picks on the worst player in franchise history, the guy you traded away for Rudy freaking Gay, Terrence "Not Andre Drummond" Ross, and, yes, DeMar DeRozan and Jonas Valanciunas. He also traded for Lowry (great move) and Amir (fantastic move considering what went out). But when you look at those moves in the context of everything he did, it seems a lot more like dumb luck than anything else (especially Lowry).

Colangelo is a pariah because he earned the label. He took a team over with the 1st overall pick, a budding star, and a clean cap, and turned it into one of the poorer stretches of basketball in Raptors franchise history, which is a sad history to be near the bottom of. And he did so purely through idiotic blunders and quick fix desperation moves. Yes, the garbage pile he left behind when he was finally replaced had some gems in it. And an actual functional general manager was able to put a team around those pieces. That doesn't erase Colangelo's failure to do so - it underlines it.

[JimiCliff]

But it's odd to me that BC is a complete pariah and Masai is a messiah when 5 of the top 6 players in win shares for our squad during the Masai era were BC acquisitions (Lowry, DeMar, Jonas, Ross, Amir).

Never forget:

Lowry was supposed to be Steve Nash. Very-end-of-his-career Steve Nash.