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20/20 Vision on DeRozan's contract

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  • #16
    What I wouldn't give get an honest answer from Ujiri on whether he would have extended derozan with the same deal coangelo did. That's not going to happen, but it sure would be fun to know!
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

    "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    • #17
      I know it's arbitrary, but for me this season is Derozan's final season to show us who he is. By the time the season ends, I'll be talking about who he is as a player, and not talking about what kind of potential he has. At that point whether his contract is worth it should be relatively easy for me to determine. If I have to say right now whether he's on a value contract or not, I'm saying no. BUT he's only overpaid slightly.
      "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

      "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

      "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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      • #18
        The LAC are essentially having an intriguing debate at the moment as to the relative value of 5 good young players: Bledsoe, DeRozan, Afflalo, Mayo and Reddick. Obviously fit with the Clip's lineup and salary comes heavily into play, but it's still interesting to read all the 'expert' insight and comparisons, as a way to guage media/league perception of each player in terms of skill, potential and fair market value.

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        • #19
          Primer wrote: View Post
          Tyreke Evans is as comparable as it gets to Derozan. Same draft, same position, and same not quite living up to their potential. The fact that Evans got offered $12M per year over 4 years ($2.5M more per year than Derozan) makes it clear it was a good idea to lock up Derozan when we did. Even if you don't think he's a good fit for the team (I'm not terribly attached to him), we can now use him as a valuable trade asset. After what we got for Bargs imagine what we could get for Derozan (could probably return a 2014 lotto pick + decent player). If we waited until someone like New Orleans offered him 4 years $48M, we'd either get stuck not matching and get nothing or have to take on a particularly onerous contract. The DD signing looks very reasonable in hindsight. Dare I say it, it looks good.

          Something like this seems plausible to me:

          To Cleveland:
          Derozan

          To Toronto:
          Tristan Thompson
          Alonzo Gee
          Cavs Top 3 protected 2014 draft pick
          I also agree with you in that BC most likely made the right decision to lock up DD before he hit the market. I can't believe some posters on here are actually fine with letting a top 10 pick who we invested 3-4 years with WALK ....That blows my mind.

          If we are comfortable with a salary figure and we assess his value to us......Why shouldn't we sign him if he also agrees to that figure???? Why let crappy teams like NO, SAC, CHA, etc. (who are well below the salary cap) throw money at our players we developed?? It makes no sense to me....yet posters keep throwing it around these forums like its the smart thing to do...lol

          Demar Derozan has missed 5 games in his ENTIRE career. Isn't that worth something? He's an iron man for the Raptors. He's arguably the top 2 or 3 players on our team and he makes less than half of what Rudy Gay makes. He basically tied Rudy Gay for the team leader in points per game. He IS improving his passing, rebounding, and even his 3 point shot.

          Bargnani, Rudy Gay, Landry Fields and Kleiza are all VASTLY OVERPAID compared to what they bring. It makes (made in the case of Bargnani) sense to get rid of their contracts before touching DD. I hope MU sees the common sense in this approach.

          Personally i would deal Rudy to Cleveland for Verajao/Thompson/Gee and first rounder in 2014. DD is still very young (he's still 23) and can come into his prime when we're ready to compete for a championship.

          It just makes sense.

          Comment


          • #20
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            There are character concerns and injury concerns with Evans that do not make it a clear bla k and white situation. From a basketball perspective I take Evans 10 times out of 10.
            Latest on Evans offer from the Pelicans is it can go as high as $50M over 4 years with incentives. Derozans deal is looking better by the day. There is a clearly a big demand for a young shooting guard in FA right now, and there is a very low supply. Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated back loaded contract offer to make it difficult for us to match. BC messed up a lot of things but he really helped us dodge a bullet there. I'm sure he'll use it in his sales pitch for his next front office job.

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            • #21
              Primer wrote: View Post
              Latest on Evans offer from the Pelicans is it can go as high as $50M over 4 years with incentives. Derozans deal is looking better by the day. There is a clearly a big demand for a young shooting guard in FA right now, and there is a very low supply. Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated back loaded contract offer to make it difficult for us to match. BC messed up a lot of things but he really helped us dodge a bullet there. I'm sure he'll use it in his sales pitch for his next front office job.
              Bloated contracts (Poison Pill Provision) are only for restricted free agents who were 2nd rd picks (hence name Gilbert Arenas attached to it). There would have been no bloated contract in terms of balloon payments.

              I still don't get the comparison to DD though - as a basketball player. Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can play PG through SF. He rebounds. He creates. He gets steals (although his defense is likely on par with DeRozan at best). He is more efficient. He has made steady improvements in his three point shooting while giving a sample size large enough to draw a conclusion (2 per game over 4 seasons).

              I don't think BC dodged a bullet because DD and Evans are not in the same league as players (but character and injury history certainly help lower the spread).

              Comment


              • #22
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Bloated contracts (Poison Pill Provision) are only for restricted free agents who were 2nd rd picks (hence name Gilbert Arenas attached to it). There would have been no bloated contract in terms of balloon payments.

                I still don't get the comparison to DD though - as a basketball player. Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can play PG through SF. He rebounds. He creates. He gets steals (although his defense is likely on par with DeRozan at best). He is more efficient. He has made steady improvements in his three point shooting while giving a sample size large enough to draw a conclusion (2 per game over 4 seasons).

                I don't think BC dodged a bullet because DD and Evans are not in the same league as players (but character and injury history certainly help lower the spread).
                I'm not surprised you wouldn't get the comparison between the two......even though they were picked in the same draft class. They're basically the same height. They play basically the same position (I do realize Tyreke used to play PG, but has been playing SG and SF).

                They are not in the same league MATT52?? Did Tyreke make your all-star team??

                Tyreke has regressed since his rookie year.....he shot 20.2 percent from 3-point range in 2011-2012...... WOW Matt52....he's a career 27.6 percent 3 point shooter.....Demar shot 28.3 percent last year after taking the most 3 pointers he's ever taken in a season......Tyreke scored 3ppg less than Demar.....grabbed .5 boards more a game and handed out 1 more assist per game...... not in the same league huh? You must be delusional.

                Move Tyreke from PG to SG/SF and he doesn't appear to be as dominant as you think. I guess its tougher to play against Kobe, Wade, Harden, Demar, Paul George, Lebron, Durant, (you get my point? - you know bigger players!!)

                Play Tyreke at SG/SF and he is in the exact same league! Lets not get crazy here MATT52. Tyreke had an awesome rookie year and has come back to earth (actually has regressed yearly). Demar on the other hand had a career year last year (after already signing that contract). Yet we cant compare because you say so......gotcha!

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                • #23
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Bloated contracts (Poison Pill Provision) are only for restricted free agents who were 2nd rd picks (hence name Gilbert Arenas attached to it). There would have been no bloated contract in terms of balloon payments.

                  I still don't get the comparison to DD though - as a basketball player. Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can play PG through SF. He rebounds. He creates. He gets steals (although his defense is likely on par with DeRozan at best). He is more efficient. He has made steady improvements in his three point shooting while giving a sample size large enough to draw a conclusion (2 per game over 4 seasons).

                  I don't think BC dodged a bullet because DD and Evans are not in the same league as players (but character and injury history certainly help lower the spread).
                  Normally we agree on here but you must massively overvalue Tyreke Evans. Not in the same league? Evans is marginally better than DeRozan on offense, is just as poor if not a worse defender, and gets to the lines less. If DD is worth $9.5M, Evans can't be worth much more than $10M. Definitely not the $12M+ per year he was offered by the Pelicans.

                  Also, you're correct on the back loaded contract. Just remove that word from my sentence and it still holds true in my eyes:

                  Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated contract offer to make it difficult for us to match.

                  DD would probably have gotten offered something along the same lines as Evans, maybe a bit less, say 4 years $44M. So we saved a good chunk of money and made Derozan a more desirable trade asset since he is on a reasonable deal. Teams overpay to pry away restricted free agents and despite the new CBA that's not going to change. The Pelicans offer to Evans is so onerous that I don't think Sacramento will be able to match, and they will be left with their dick in their hands. Instead of that, the Raptors have a very valuable asset locked up long term that we could turn into any number of draft picks or players who fit us better.

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                  • #24
                    special1 wrote: View Post
                    I'm not surprised you wouldn't get the comparison between the two......even though they were picked in the same draft class. They're basically the same height. They play basically the same position (I do realize Tyreke used to play PG, but has been playing SG and SF).

                    They are not in the same league MATT52?? Did Tyreke make your all-star team??

                    Tyreke has regressed since his rookie year.....he shot 20.2 percent from 3-point range in 2011-2012...... WOW Matt52....he's a career 27.6 percent 3 point shooter.....Demar shot 28.3 percent last year after taking the most 3 pointers he's ever taken in a season......Tyreke scored 3ppg less than Demar.....grabbed .5 boards more a game and handed out 1 more assist per game...... not in the same league huh? You must be delusional.

                    Move Tyreke from PG to SG/SF and he doesn't appear to be as dominant as you think. I guess its tougher to play against Kobe, Wade, Harden, Demar, Paul George, Lebron, Durant, (you get my point? - you know bigger players!!)

                    Play Tyreke at SG/SF and he is in the exact same league! Lets not get crazy here MATT52. Tyreke had an awesome rookie year and has come back to earth (actually has regressed yearly). Demar on the other hand had a career year last year (after already signing that contract). Yet we cant compare because you say so......gotcha!
                    Lets not get crazy indeed.

                    You know Evan's much hyped rookie year?

                    Last year he upped his WP48 by nearly 33% over his rookie year.

                    In 997 LESS minutes last season, Evans produced 4.6 MORE wins than DeRozan (7.0 compared to 3.4).

                    Never mind the efficiency stats.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Primer wrote: View Post
                      Normally we agree on here but you must massively overvalue Tyreke Evans. Not in the same league? Evans is marginally better than DeRozan on offense, is just as poor if not a worse defender, and gets to the lines less. If DD is worth $9.5M, Evans can't be worth much more than $10M. Definitely not the $12M+ per year he was offered by the Pelicans.

                      Also, you're correct on the back loaded contract. Just remove that word from my sentence and it still holds true in my eyes:

                      Derozan almost certainly would have gotten a bloated contract offer to make it difficult for us to match.

                      DD would probably have gotten offered something along the same lines as Evans, maybe a bit less, say 4 years $44M. So we saved a good chunk of money and made Derozan a more desirable trade asset since he is on a reasonable deal. Teams overpay to pry away restricted free agents and despite the new CBA that's not going to change. The Pelicans offer to Evans is so onerous that I don't think Sacramento will be able to match, and they will be left with their dick in their hands. Instead of that, the Raptors have a very valuable asset locked up long term that we could turn into any number of draft picks or players who fit us better.
                      Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can penetrate, create for himself/others, and is actually showing improvements in his 3pt shooting. His rebounding and assists are all above average. Per48mins he gets to the line 6.5 times compared to DD's 6.8.

                      DD runs off screens to take long 2's.

                      Both suck on D but Evans nearly doubles steals.


                      If DD is so valuable, why did the Clippers just get Dudley and Redick COMBINED for just $1.5M more than DD is getting paid?

                      Why is Martin making $2.5M a year less?

                      Look at the numbers, watch some games, and take off the homer glasses:

                      http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co..._ids[]=290

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                      • #26
                        Oh and just so we are clear:

                        As much disdain as I have for DD's contract, it is equal for the one reportedly put forth by NO for Evans.


                        This tweet nails it:


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                        • #27
                          lmfao,,,, when the man's on a mission................... *!^$#(&@^%#$(*^*

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                          • #28
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            Evans is multi-dimensional on offense. He can penetrate, create for himself/others, and is actually showing improvements in his 3pt shooting. His rebounding and assists are all above average. Per48mins he gets to the line 6.5 times compared to DD's 6.8.

                            DD runs off screens to take long 2's.

                            Both suck on D but Evans nearly doubles steals.


                            If DD is so valuable, why did the Clippers just get Dudley and Redick COMBINED for just $1.5M more than DD is getting paid?

                            Why is Martin making $2.5M a year less?

                            Look at the numbers, watch some games, and take off the homer glasses:

                            http://www.thenbageek.com/players/co..._ids[]=290
                            Well, we're at one of those agree to disagree points. Just gonna have to see how this plays out. I'm guessing you'll be pleasantly shocked at the haul we get for Derozan if we deal him. I think Raptors hardcore fans have the lowest opinion of DD of anyone in the NBA. Around the league he isn't considered a no defense playing no offense having shit sandwich like you make him seem here. Keep in mind Derozan is only 23. I assure you he has more value than Kevin Martin (30 years old), JJ Reddick (29 years old), or Jared Dudley (27 years old), whom are all widely known to have reached their potential and most likely are in a decline.

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                            • #29
                              Primer wrote: View Post
                              Well, we're at one of those agree to disagree points. Just gonna have to see how this plays out. I'm guessing you'll be pleasantly shocked at the haul we get for Derozan if we deal him. I think Raptors hardcore fans have the lowest opinion of DD of anyone in the NBA. Around the league he isn't considered a no defense playing no offense having shit sandwich like you make him seem here. Keep in mind Derozan is only 23. I assure you he has more value than Kevin Martin (30 years old), JJ Reddick (29 years old), or Jared Dudley (27 years old), whom are all widely known to have reached their potential and most likely are in a decline.
                              lol,,,,, DD won't even be as old as those guys are now when his contract is finished, but whose counting on numbers?

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                              • #30
                                Primer wrote: View Post
                                Well, we're at one of those agree to disagree points. Just gonna have to see how this plays out. I'm guessing you'll be pleasantly shocked at the haul we get for Derozan if we deal him. I think Raptors hardcore fans have the lowest opinion of DD of anyone in the NBA. Around the league he isn't considered a no defense playing no offense having shit sandwich like you make him seem here. Keep in mind Derozan is only 23. I assure you he has more value than Kevin Martin (30 years old), JJ Reddick (29 years old), or Jared Dudley (27 years old), whom are all widely known to have reached their potential and most likely are in a decline.
                                I don't make any evaluation of DD and comment towards another poster here personal.

                                I have nothing against DD. The problem with DD is he is an average NBA player who is going to be paid 2x league average and 3-4x league median salary. He is easily replaceable.

                                What I suggest you keep in mind is exactly what you typed. If DD is so great why didn't teams jump to take him? Of course that assumes you are wrong. You very well might be right in your assessment of his value like stated in the bold. However when looking at the contracts being given out to players who excel at his deficiencies, I can't help but disagree.

                                DD might be just 23 but he has 9700 NBA minutes played with the majority being option 1 or 2. He is what he is.

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