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  • #91
    I'm not going to pretend I know what thibs thinks of his defense, nor will I pretend to know what determines thibs' rotations in these scrimmages.
    "Stop eating your sushi."
    "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
    "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
    - Jack Armstrong

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    • #92
      Xixak wrote: View Post
      I'm not comparing basketball players in general to an iPad, I'm talking about ONE player, DeRozan.

      Maybe a better example is a limited edition car being auctioned off. The highest bidder sets the value not people that don't want the item lmao.

      And what you said about Buford, Presti, Riley and Morey is an assumption.
      But what you're doing are also assumptions. You assume the market value range for DeRozan. Your PERSONAL evaluation of him is that he's worth no less than $8 million and no more than $11 million. This is a pointless argument because there is no right or wrong answer. The concept of underpaying and overpaying all depends on personal expectations of him. Take Iggy as an example and his 4 year, $48 million contract. There will be some people think he's overpaid because he's older now, on the decline, and can't shoot well. There will be other people who think he could be worth more because he does so many other things like passing, rebounding, and defense. Everyone has a different expectation and perception of what players bring to a table, so there is no correct or incorrect answer to the question as to whether Demar's overpaid or underpaid. People will always disagree because people value him different based on different things. There is only a correct answer when there is a 100% consensus. Also, you don't have to insult people just to make a point! "Ok do you have trouble using your brain?" You just come off as an arrogant jerk which you are being right now!

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      • #93
        Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
        But what you're doing are also assumptions. You assume the market value range for DeRozan. Your PERSONAL evaluation of him is that he's worth no less than $8 million and no more than $11 million. This is a pointless argument because there is no right or wrong answer. The concept of underpaying and overpaying all depends on personal expectations of him. Take Iggy as an example and his 4 year, $48 million contract. There will be some people think he's overpaid because he's older now, on the decline, and can't shoot well. There will be other people who think he could be worth more because he does so many other things like passing, rebounding, and defense. Everyone has a different expectation and perception of what players bring to a table, so there is no correct or incorrect answer to the question as to whether Demar's overpaid or underpaid. People will always disagree because people value him different based on different things. There is only a correct answer when there is a 100% consensus. Also, you don't have to insult people just to make a point! "Ok do you have trouble using your brain?" You just come off as an arrogant jerk which you are being right now!
        Would you say OJ Mayo and Tyreke Evans are:

        - Around DeMar's range in terms of performance?
        - Around the same age?
        - Have about the same perceived upside?
        - Play the same position?

        The answer to all of those should be yes, and considering one of those guys got $8M per and another got $11M it's not hard to envision DeMar being in that range. That's not a personal evaluation, it's looking around the league and using evidence and facts to support my point.

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        • #94
          JimiCliff wrote: View Post
          I don't think he's worth it because he's a 2 who can't shoot and doesn't defend; I thought we all knew this so I wasn't explicit.
          "Can't shoot" from 3 maybe. He's one of the best mid-range shooters in the league at his position. He shoots 40% from 16-23 feet on 5.3 attempts (http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?...eMar%20DeRozan). Strangely enough that was exactly the same as Kobe Bryant's shooting from that range (http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Kobe%20Bryant).

          I'm still not buying this "can't defend" crap. DeMar definitely isn't an elite defender, but:

          He ranked 9th in the league in Opponent PER last year http://www.82games.com/1213/ROLRTG3.HTM

          If you look at the rest of the guys in the top 9, they're all considered above average to elite defenders (with the exception of Dunleavy and Crawford, but their OPP PERs are high because they usually play against bench players). If opposing shooting guards are consistently playing below average against him, how does he not defend? Is it just an accident?

          Edit: Disclaimer before somebody rips into me. I'm not saying DeMar is an elite defender, but from watching games it's pretty clear he's not getting torched out there and this stat backs that up as well. He does an average to good job on the defensive side of the ball.
          Last edited by Xixak; Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:01 PM.

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          • #95
            Xixak wrote: View Post
            "Can't shoot" from 3 maybe. He's one of the best mid-range shooters in the league at his position. He shoots 40% from 16-23 feet on 5.3 attempts
            also in the illustrious company of dion "sweet stroke" waiters and mean willie green.

            "top third" or "slightly above the league average of 38.1%" would be much more accurate than the very hyperbolic "one of the best in the league."
            Last edited by chris; Fri Jul 26, 2013, 10:43 PM.

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            • #96
              Xixak wrote: View Post
              "Can't shoot" from 3 maybe. He's one of the best mid-range shooters in the league at his position. He shoots 40% from 16-23 feet on 5.3 attempts (http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?...eMar%20DeRozan). Strangely enough that was exactly the same as Kobe Bryant's shooting from that range (http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Kobe%20Bryant).

              I'm still not buying this "can't defend" crap. DeMar definitely isn't an elite defender, but:

              He ranked 9th in the league in Opponent PER last year http://www.82games.com/1213/ROLRTG3.HTM

              If you look at the rest of the guys in the top 9, they're all considered above average to elite defenders (with the exception of Dunleavy and Crawford, but their OPP PERs are high because they usually play against bench players). If opposing shooting guards are consistently playing below average against him, how does he not defend? Is it just an accident?

              Edit: Disclaimer before somebody rips into me. I'm not saying DeMar is an elite defender, but from watching games it's pretty clear he's not getting torched out there and this stat backs that up as well. He does an average to good job on the defensive side of the ball.
              This is purely based on my own perception and memory, but it seems to me the coaches have tended to hide Demar on whoever the weaker of the wings opposing wings is. They certainly don't go out of there way to assign him to the opposing teams' stronger wing, that's for sure. This would explain some of that PER stat.
              "Stop eating your sushi."
              "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
              "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
              - Jack Armstrong

              Comment


              • #97
                And after looking at that PER table more closely, i don't think you can draw any meaningful conclusions from it. There are some excellent defenders way down on the list, and, as stated, some total sieves near the top.
                "Stop eating your sushi."
                "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                - Jack Armstrong

                Comment


                • #98
                  JimiCliff wrote: View Post
                  I don't think he's worth it because he's a 2 who can't shoot and doesn't defend; I thought we all knew this so I wasn't explicit.
                  I still don't quite follow you Jimi, but I'm starting to see where you're coming from. If we're not comparing Demar to guys like Tyreke, or OJ Mayo then who should we be comparing him (and his contract) to who?

                  Primer wrote: View Post
                  The reason Tyreke is so overpaid is because he was a RFA and NOLA needed to overpay in order to get Sacramento to not match. OJ was not restricted and got fair market value. Derozan sits in between them because we extended him, which let us avoid overpaying (i.e. Tyreke) when he got to RFA, but doesn't let us get him as cheap as if he was a UFA (i.e. Mayo). So there was a clear cost saving of around $1.5M per season by extending Demar instead of waiting for him to become a RFA and matching an offer from another team.
                  I hear you Primer, but NOLA were bidding against the Kings, who just extended their center, and have a very tight budget. That is still a massive overpay. To me the OJ Mayo contract is a better comparison. Extension or not, from my totally amateur perspective the market value for a player of his ilk is closer to 8 mill than 11. Mind you, it's not the massive overpay that NOLA just did. NOLA just gave the 4th (5th maybe) best player on their team one of their largest contracts.

                  Could Demar have signed an offer sheet for say 9 mill...maybe, but 11? Only a poorly managed team would do that, and other than NOLA the poorly managed teams generally went for vets (Detroit, Charlotte) or are in full tank mode (Phoenix just traded Scola for Green...what!?). I seriously doubt any of the remaining teams would reach that much for Demar.

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                  • #99
                    blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                    or are in full tank mode (Phoenix just traded Scola for Green...what!?).
                    Actually, that's a great trade for absolutely everybody involved in it. Indiana gets Scola, who makes their bench crazy deep. Scola gets to play for a contender. Phoenix takes Green, but gets a good young defensive prospect with upside in Miles Plumlee and Indiana's 2014 first rounder (well, it's lotto protected, but come on, Indiana isn't gonna be in the lottery this year). If Plumlee doesn't work out this year, Phoenix doesn't exercise the team option. For Plumlee and Green, it's a chance to get minutes on a team and show that they're worth a bigger contract later on (or in Green's case, any contract really).

                    For a team like Phoenix who knows they're not going to make playoffs, that's a really great payout for Scola, who's not starter quality. A prospect and a pick, and they ate a little crap but Green's contract is hardly so bad that it's going to hurt them longterm - I mean, he's only 3.5 million over each of the next two seasons. And Indiana gets even more vicious.

                    (now someone tell me why we can't get a first-rounder if we trade Rudy again)

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                    • magoon wrote: View Post
                      Actually, that's a great trade for absolutely everybody involved in it. Indiana gets Scola, who makes their bench crazy deep. Scola gets to play for a contender. Phoenix takes Green, but gets a good young defensive prospect with upside in Miles Plumlee and Indiana's 2014 first rounder (well, it's lotto protected, but come on, Indiana isn't gonna be in the lottery this year). If Plumlee doesn't work out this year, Phoenix doesn't exercise the team option. For Plumlee and Green, it's a chance to get minutes on a team and show that they're worth a bigger contract later on (or in Green's case, any contract really).

                      For a team like Phoenix who knows they're not going to make playoffs, that's a really great payout for Scola, who's not starter quality. A prospect and a pick, and they ate a little crap but Green's contract is hardly so bad that it's going to hurt them longterm - I mean, he's only 3.5 million over each of the next two seasons. And Indiana gets even more vicious.

                      (now someone tell me why we can't get a first-rounder if we trade Rudy again)
                      You're trying to equate apples to watermelons. Indiana didn't need an SF at all, but latched on to a backup PF that they sorely needed, whose only making $4.5M. If you can present a trade of Rudy, that makes sense for both teams, have at it. Then there might be something useful to talk about. Until then, it's just an incessant, baseless rant.

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                      • p00ka wrote: View Post
                        You're trying to equate apples to watermelons. Indiana didn't need an SF at all, but latched on to a backup PF that they sorely needed, whose only making $4.5M.
                        I'm not saying we should've traded Rudy to Indiana. That would be silly. But people here have argued that Rudy can't fetch a 2014 first-rounder or two in a trade, and that is simply and obviously nertz.

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                        • chris wrote: View Post
                          also in the illustrious company of dion "sweet stroke" waiters and mean willie green.

                          "top third" or "slightly above the league average of 38.1%" would be much more accurate than the very hyperbolic "one of the best in the league."
                          Again you're not using context. You have to look at VOLUME when evaluating percentages.

                          DeRozan took more mid-range shots than ANY OTHER perimeter player in the NBA and STILL shot above average percentage-wise. That is the mark of one of the best shooters from mid-range in the league. On top of that, more of his attempts are contested and off the dribble than the average player as well.

                          Are we gonna say Durant is in the same company as Steve Blake as a three point shooter because Blake shoots 42.1% and KD shoots 41.6%? No, because we're not idiots. Durant takes twice as many threes, and usually at a much higher degree of difficulty.

                          Why is it so difficult for people to use context when looking at stats? This is not baseball for the one billionth time.

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                          • Xixak wrote: View Post
                            Again you're not using context. You have to look at VOLUME when evaluating percentages.

                            DeRozan took more mid-range shots than ANY OTHER perimeter player in the NBA and STILL shot above average percentage-wise. That is the mark of one of the best shooters from mid-range in the league. On top of that, more of his attempts are contested and off the dribble than the average player as well.

                            Are we gonna say Durant is in the same company as Steve Blake as a three point shooter because Blake shoots 42.1% and KD shoots 41.6%? No, because we're not idiots. Durant takes twice as many threes, and usually at a much higher degree of difficulty.

                            Why is it so difficult for people to use context when looking at stats? This is not baseball for the one billionth time.
                            because people don't use their brain

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                            • Xixak wrote: View Post
                              Again you're not using context. You have to look at VOLUME when evaluating percentages.

                              DeRozan took more mid-range shots than ANY OTHER perimeter player in the NBA and STILL shot above average percentage-wise. That is the mark of one of the best shooters from mid-range in the league. On top of that, more of his attempts are contested and off the dribble than the average player as well.

                              Are we gonna say Durant is in the same company as Steve Blake as a three point shooter because Blake shoots 42.1% and KD shoots 41.6%? No, because we're not idiots. Durant takes twice as many threes, and usually at a much higher degree of difficulty.

                              Why is it so difficult for people to use context when looking at stats? This is not baseball for the one billionth time.
                              okay i gotcha so demar derozan is not overpaid because he leads the league in bad shot attempts per game and hits them at a slightly above average clip. and also because other teams make poor decisions too.

                              thank you for the lesson in context and also economics. i dunno from markets because i am a dude of science.

                              Comment


                              • Xixak wrote: View Post
                                Again you're not using context. You have to look at VOLUME when evaluating percentages.

                                DeRozan took more mid-range shots than ANY OTHER perimeter player in the NBA and STILL shot above average percentage-wise. That is the mark of one of the best shooters from mid-range in the league. On top of that, more of his attempts are contested and off the dribble than the average player as well.

                                Are we gonna say Durant is in the same company as Steve Blake as a three point shooter because Blake shoots 42.1% and KD shoots 41.6%? No, because we're not idiots. Durant takes twice as many threes, and usually at a much higher degree of difficulty.

                                Why is it so difficult for people to use context when looking at stats? This is not baseball for the one billionth time.
                                also since your lesson in context i took a closer look at volume shooters from this range both amongst SG's and amongst all perimeter players, and he's pretty decidedly average. for the purpose of this exercise "volume shooter" was arbitrarily defined as >3 attempts per game (maybe a little low for your definition of volume but there just aren't that many players taking long two's since it's the least effective shot in basketball.)

                                anyhow, he's tied for 10th out of 15 SG's to attempt more than 3 shot's from 16-23 feet per game. his average is 40% and their average is 40.3%.

                                he's tied for 25th out of 47 perimeter players leaguewide to attempt more than 3 long two's per game. his average is 40% and their average is 40.1%

                                fun fact: rudy gay is dead last at 27%.

                                you're absolutely right that he takes the most number of long two's per game though.

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