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Signs Of Tanking?

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  • There seems to be this notion that Ujiri is waiting to "evaluate" the team before making a trade. That is just rhetoric lol, I'm not sure how people fail to see this.

    He's not a fool, he knows how good our players are. He's not waiting to see how good they are, he's waiting for better trades to become available, because right now there clearly aren't any to his liking or he would've made one.

    Comment


    • Xixak wrote: View Post
      I think a lot of tankers want to have their cake and eat it too.

      They want to get a ton of assets back for Gay and Lowry, but they also want to tank immediately. Riddle me this: why would any team trade significant assets for Gay/Lowry when they're not even sure how their current roster is going to perform or what its ceiling is?

      There's a reason most trades like this happen during the trade deadline and it's not because GMs spend the first 50 games twiddling their thumbs.
      Well of course people are advocating that the Raptors get back as many assets as possible. To not do so would be shooting yourself in the foot.

      But nowhere have I read from the pro-rebuild group that the Raptors should be holding out for some type of godfather offer. It's too early in the process to cave and accept an offer of only Charlie V/Stuckey, but if Dumars were to throw in a couple picks or a player like KCP then I think you have to start thinking a lot harder about it.

      I don't think that Ujiri is turning down a bunch of really good offers right now. No one ever said that. I would admit that the market for Lowry, Gay, etc. is pretty stagnant right now. I think it speaks to the value of some of our roster around the league, which naturally leads to the question of why you are so adamant about building around players that no other team seemingly want.

      If Ujiri has to wait until the season has already begun before the offers pick up, so be it. It's not the ideal scenario obviously, but if that's what the market dictates then there's really not much of a choice.

      As long as we're not putting our head down and continuing on with this mediocre ensemble of mismatched talent for the next 3-4 years... I'll be satisfied.

      Comment


      • Fully wrote: View Post
        Well of course people are advocating that the Raptors get back as many assets as possible. To not do so would be shooting yourself in the foot.

        But nowhere have I read from the pro-rebuild group that the Raptors should be holding out for some type of godfather offer. It's too early in the process to cave and accept an offer of only Charlie V/Stuckey, but if Dumars were to throw in a couple picks or a player like KCP then I think you have to start thinking a lot harder about it.

        I don't think that Ujiri is turning down a bunch of really good offers right now. No one ever said that. I would admit that the market for Lowry, Gay, etc. is pretty stagnant right now. I think it speaks to the value of some of our roster around the league, which naturally leads to the question of why you are so adamant about building around players that no other team seemingly want.

        If Ujiri has to wait until the season has already begun before the offers pick up, so be it. It's not the ideal scenario obviously, but if that's what the market dictates then there's really not much of a choice.

        As long as we're not putting our head down and continuing on with this mediocre ensemble of mismatched talent for the next 3-4 years... I'll be satisfied.
        Yes this is my point, but GMs usually aren't ready to make these kind of deals until the trade deadline... at which point they might not make sense for us depending on our record.

        Comment


        • Xixak wrote: View Post
          Yes this is my point, but GMs usually aren't ready to make these kind of deals until the trade deadline... at which point they might not make sense for us depending on our record.
          Your point is essentially the same thing many of the pro-tankers are making, when they refer to the 1st half of the season as an evaluation period. It's not only a time for MU/DC to evaluate the Raptors, but for other teams to evaluate their own teams and Raptors players as potential trade targets. I've said from the time TL/MU were hired, that I expected the most significant moves to [potentially] be made leading up to the trade deadline, not this offseason.

          For instance, if Detroit really is interested in Gay, I expect their offer to improve substantially between now and the trade deadline; especailly if Gay's play improves with better team chemistry and improved vision, and other teams enter the Gay-sweepstakes.

          Depending on what happens throughout the first half of the season, I think MU will determine whether he wants to rebuild (aka 2nd half tank) or retool. Even if the team is performing well above expectations, I still don't believe that the status quo will be maintained, given the financial situation the team is in. Even if the Raps are sitting in the #6 spot, MU is going to have to decide whether that spot is this roster's jumping-off point or ceiling. When the team is nearly a luxury tax team even before a Lowry extension, simply being a low playoff team (if that is the projected ceiling) is not going to be enough for the current core roster to remain intact.

          I am excited for the 1st half of this season, both to see the development of the team's current players and to see what move(s) MU is able to make to improve this team for the long-term.

          Comment


          • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            So basically you understood what he meant, but were nitpicking that he typed "another" instead of "a second"?

            I think you're just a little too eager for a pissing match with Matt52.

            It was pretty simple, as it was all in response to a series of messages you had posted. We want 2. We got 1. Our chances of ending up with 2 are better than teams that don't have 1 yet.


            I'd suggest - and not just to you - that we all give our fellow posters the benefit of the doubt and read what they typed and take a moment to think about what they really meant, rather than use every little opportunity to show them up.
            No I didn't understand what he "meant" originally, I understood it after other posters clarified it. That sentence and what he meant are two completely different things.

            Comment


            • Xixak wrote: View Post
              No I didn't understand what he "meant" originally, I understood it after other posters clarified it. That sentence and what he meant are two completely different things.
              Oh for the love of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Allah, and all that is pure, sacred, and holy:

              Comment


              • I am not anti-tank or pro-tank. I would trade anyone on the team in a second if I was getting more value in return.

                The only thing I have an issue with is selling low on guys or picks to attempt to achieve a goal. Whether that goal is a high pick or a playoff berth.

                For instance. Say we get to the trade deadline and only Detroit really has interest in Gay. BUT, Smith at 3 with Monroe at 4 isn't working out too poorly, so they're willing to live with it. As a result, they are not willing to add to their offer of Stuckey+Villanueva for Gay?

                Then as a pro-tanker what do you do?

                Comment


                • Xixak wrote: View Post
                  I am not anti-tank or pro-tank. I would trade anyone on the team in a second if I was getting more value in return.

                  The only thing I have an issue with is selling low on guys or picks to attempt to achieve a goal. Whether that goal is a high pick or a playoff berth.

                  For instance. Say we get to the trade deadline and only Detroit really has interest in Gay. BUT, Smith at 3 with Monroe at 4 isn't working out too poorly, so they're willing to live with it. As a result, they are not willing to add to their offer of Stuckey+Villanueva for Gay?

                  Then as a pro-tanker what do you do?
                  Call Charlotte?

                  Comment


                  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Call Charlotte?
                    I said "only" Detroit.

                    Comment


                    • Xixak wrote: View Post
                      I am not anti-tank or pro-tank. I would trade anyone on the team in a second if I was getting more value in return.

                      The only thing I have an issue with is selling low on guys or picks to attempt to achieve a goal. Whether that goal is a high pick or a playoff berth.

                      For instance. Say we get to the trade deadline and only Detroit really has interest in Gay. BUT, Smith at 3 with Monroe at 4 isn't working out too poorly, so they're willing to live with it. As a result, they are not willing to add to their offer of Stuckey+Villanueva for Gay?

                      Then as a pro-tanker what do you do?
                      Would Detroit even want Gay then? They would have a starting 3 and 4 that work together well.. so why screw that up by bringing in another 3 that would need to start too?

                      Comment


                      • planetmars wrote: View Post
                        Would Detroit even want Gay then? They would have a starting 3 and 4 that work together well.. so why screw that up by bringing in another 3 that would need to start too?
                        Jesus...

                        Ok more realistic scenario:

                        Charlotte is the only team that wants Rudy Gay, MKG has been playing well but is still raw and they would like to make a playoff push. That being said, they are not willing to move MKG or the Detroit pick (they can't trade theirs because Chicago has it protected).

                        They offer us Sessions, Ben Gordon and the Blazers top-12 protected pick for Gay. What do we do?

                        Comment


                        • Xixak wrote: View Post
                          Jesus...

                          Ok more realistic scenario:

                          Charlotte is the only team that wants Rudy Gay, MKG has been playing well but is still raw and they would like to make a playoff push. That being said, they are not willing to move MKG or the Detroit pick (they can't trade theirs because Chicago has it protected).

                          They offer us Sessions, Ben Gordon and the Blazers top-12 protected pick for Gay. What do we do?
                          You take the deal?

                          Comment


                          • Fully wrote: View Post
                            You take the deal?
                            Really?

                            So you take a top-12 protected pick (that we will likely lose since the Blazers most likely won't be in the playoffs) and two expirings for Gay just to try and tank? This is the exact attitude I'm talking about...

                            Comment


                            • Xixak wrote: View Post
                              I am not anti-tank or pro-tank. I would trade anyone on the team in a second if I was getting more value in return.

                              The only thing I have an issue with is selling low on guys or picks to attempt to achieve a goal. Whether that goal is a high pick or a playoff berth.

                              For instance. Say we get to the trade deadline and only Detroit really has interest in Gay. BUT, Smith at 3 with Monroe at 4 isn't working out too poorly, so they're willing to live with it. As a result, they are not willing to add to their offer of Stuckey+Villanueva for Gay?

                              Then as a pro-tanker what do you do?
                              I don't know what you do as a "pro-tanker", but a sensible asset manager would evaluate all options. Gay isn't owned for life. If (A) the Raptors record isn't great, and (B) they feel that Gay intends to opt out and they don't think they can/will re-sign him, then even a crappy offer can make sense. If A or B isn't true, then it might make sense to wait.

                              The end goal is to go from assets to better assets and where possible, get rid of assets before they go bad. Same as any other business. Draft is just one of tools to get these better assets. Trades are another tool. Free agency is another tool. A GM can't just look at trades in a vacuum and say "derp derp I'm keeping Gay no matter what, unless I get a star back", that would be horrific asset management. It's all part of a bigger picture and all situational.

                              In other words, yes, it's possible that a subpar trade is a good asset management move. Was amnestying Luis Scola a good move in a vacuum? Hell no, the Rockets lost a good player. Was it a good asset management move? Hell yes.

                              Either way, we'll see when we get there. For now, I doubt that will be the best offer available. Who knows, given Ujiri's secrecy, he might have better offers on the table already, and we wouldn't know.
                              Last edited by BobLoblaw; Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:19 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Xixak wrote: View Post
                                Really?

                                So you take a top-12 protected pick (that we will likely lose since the Blazers most likely won't be in the playoffs) and two expirings for Gay just to try and tank? This is the exact attitude I'm talking about...
                                You don't "lose" the pick if it falls within 1-12. It would carry over to the next season when it has the same protections (1-12). The following year it becomes completely unprotected. If you think there's a good chance that the Blazers finish outside of the playoffs the next two years (which is entirely possible), it's actually a sneaky good asset to acquire as all the protections come off in 2016.

                                The expiring contracts on their face are 'throw-ins' in the context of the deal, but salary cap flexibility is valuable and something that the Raptors sorely need. Neither Sessions nor Gordon would be in the plans once their contract expires but the options and flexibility that their expiring deals would provide Ujiri in subsequent years holds value beyond what type of players they are.

                                So you've acquired close to $20 million in expiring money, a first round draft pick that has the potential to be incredibly valuable depending on how things go in Portland over the next few seasons, and have improved your chances of drafting highly with your own pick in 2014 by decreasing the talent level on the team in the short term. That's a win if rebuilding is the plan. Especially when it's for a player that you yourself are convinced is opting out in 2014 (which could end up giving you absolutely 0 in return if he decides to go elsewhere).
                                Last edited by Fully; Thu Aug 15, 2013, 12:29 PM.

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