Signs Of Tanking?

[Xixak]

Don't read into things too much. He's simply saying that as good and serviceable as all those guys listed by you none of them is a superstar in waiting, and none of them can carry a team. This team would be better with any of those guys, but we wouldn't be much closer to a championship.

Yep thats exactly what I recommended......

I wasn't suggesting that you were saying we should do that.

I was just pointing out the viewpoint that pro-tankers have.

[Craiger]

I wasn't suggesting that you were saying we should do that.

I was just pointing out the viewpoint that pro-tankers have.

Actually being a pro-tanker myself, I'd say you are pointing out what you think is the view point of pro-tankers and not necessarily the view point of pro-tankers themselves.

Having witnessed and been involved in quite a few debates on the issue I've discovered that those two things are often very different.

[Xixak]

Actually being a pro-tanker myself, I'd say you are pointing out what you think is the view point of pro-tankers and not necessarily the view point of pro-tankers themselves.

Having witnessed and been involved in quite a few debates on the issue I've discovered that those two things are often very different.

So how would you suggest we tank then?

[Craiger]

So how would you suggest we tank then?

throw away players to have a miniscule chance of getting one of those players

[slaw]

Tanking is just building your team based on luck. It makes sense if your team is already terrible and you have no established players. But you don't just trade established players away for picks which more than likely will yield INFERIOR players.

It depends. Businesses make decisions all the time that may negatively impact short term results in the belief that the long term results will yield larger dividends to the business. Of course, there are no guarantees given unforeseen variables and knowable risks but there are no guarantees no matter what you do.

The Raptors find themselves in an awkward position as a result of old ownership's failure to fire the management team years ago when it should have been done. Now, new ownership and management have a very expensive product that doesn't produce much in the way of results with, apparently, limited potential. That's a very uncomfortable place. If they stay the course and the team ends up outside the playoffs with the 13th overall pick, you've had an unproductive season, missed out on any chance of Wiggins et al. and you're either locked into a very expensive, underperforming roster or you're then looking to blow it up as key pieces are walking (Lowry, Gay). If you tank and don't get Wiggins, yeah, that sucks and you've wasted a year and you'll get hammered in the media and by fans but you've wasted a year without spending $70 million on your roster and you've given yourself some maneouverability going forward.

I'm not advocating any specific route as there are risks either way and I'm prepared to give Ujiri the benefit of the doubt as he knows far more about basketball than I do. Having said that, one thing I know for certain is that if you want to be a legit contender in the NBA, you need a superstar. The Raps don't have one. I don't know how they get one outside of the draft. Even Ujiri, for all the good he did in Denver (57 win team), said himself that the team wasn't close to being a contender. So, yeah, you can add all the Fareids and Fourniers you want, and that's great, but they don't win you ECF and WCF games. If they want to re-tool the current roster then that's great but unless they are doing a Harden-like trade, it won't propel this team to great heights.

[Xixak]

throw away players to have a miniscule chance of getting one of those players

When did RealGM change it's name to Raptors Republic???

[Xixak]

It depends. Businesses make decisions all the time that may negatively impact short term results in the belief that the long term results will yield larger dividends to the business. Of course, there are no guarantees given unforeseen variables and knowable risks but there are no guarantees no matter what you do.

The Raptors find themselves in an awkward position as a result of old ownership's failure to fire the management team years ago when it should have been done. Now, new ownership and management have a very expensive product that doesn't produce much in the way of results with, apparently, limited potential. That's a very uncomfortable place. If they stay the course and the team ends up outside the playoffs with the 13th overall pick, you've had an unproductive season, missed out on any chance of Wiggins et al. and you're either locked into a very expensive, underperforming roster or you're then looking to blow it up as key pieces are walking (Lowry, Gay). If you tank and don't get Wiggins, yeah, that sucks and you've wasted a year and you'll get hammered in the media and by fans but you've wasted a year without spending $70 million on your roster and you've given yourself some maneouverability going forward.

I'm not advocating any specific route as there are risks either way and I'm prepared to give Ujiri the benefit of the doubt as he knows far more about basketball than I do. Having said that, one thing I know for certain is that if you want to be a legit contender in the NBA, you need a superstar. The Raps don't have one. I don't know how they get one outside of the draft. Even Ujiri, for all the good he did in Denver (57 win team), said himself that the team wasn't close to being a contender. So, yeah, you can add all the Fareids and Fourniers you want, and that's great, but they don't win you ECF and WCF games. If they want to re-tool the current roster then that's great but unless they are doing a Harden-like trade, it won't propel this team to great heights.

I'm not sure that's 100% true, although it is true like 99% of the time.

[Nilanka]

I'm not sure that's 100% true, although it is true like 99% of the time.

The only exception that comes to mind is the 2004 Pistons. And I suppose one could add that 2013 Pacers to the list.

But either way, we're scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

[BobLoblaw]

Btw you can have success in the draft without tanking to a top 5 pick. Look at the 2011 draft for example. With the exception of Irving/JV, the top players were all drafted outside the top 10.

Klay - 11
Kawhi - 15
Vucevic - 16
Shumpert - 17
Faried - 22
Jimmy Butler - 30
Tobias - 19

I'll take Kanter, Tristan, Kemba and Derrick Williams over some of those names at this point, but yes, it turned out an interesting draft. 2008 was somewhat similar (a lot of great talent late).

[Mediumcore]

For some reason Ujiri always seems to be the guy that finds them. Fournier was very good for the Nuggets when he finally got minutes late last season. Put up 12-3-2 on 50% FG, 35% 3PT and 93% from 3 in 23 minutes per game in April, about 18-5-4 per 36 if you care for per 36.

I think Lamb is also going to be very effective for OKC next year, and Sullinger should be a big contributor for Boston with KG gone.

Ujirie has an eye for talent, but some of the credit has to go to George Karl's system as well. There is a reason why guys like Corey Brewer saved their careers by turning it around in Denver.

[magoon]

The only exception that comes to mind is the 2004 Pistons. And I suppose one could add that 2013 Pacers to the list.

But either way, we're scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

The 2004 Pistons didn't have a superstar, marquee-level player but they did have:

1. A four-time All Star, four-time Defensive Player of the Year, two-time rebounding champion, three-time All-NBA Second Team, five-time All-NBA Defensive Team player (Ben Wallace)
2. A five-time All Star, two-time All-NBA Defensive Second Team, one-time All-NBA Second Team player (Chauncey Billups)
3. A three-time All Star (Richard Hamilton)
4. A four-time All Star (Rasheed Wallace)
5. A four-time All-NBA Defensive Second Team player (Tayshaun Prince)
6. A one-time All Star (Mehmet Okur)
7. A Sixth Man of the Year (Corliss Williamson)

Basically, the 2004 Pistons were loaded with talent, and the only reason Detroit didn't become a dynasty is because they wasted their pick in the 2003 draft on Darko Milicic rather than Melo/Wade/Bosh. Detroit never had an A+ level superstar player, but they compensated for it by having a roster that was stuffed with A-level players.

[Mediumcore]

The 2004 Pistons didn't have a superstar, marquee-level player but they did have:

1. A four-time All Star, four-time Defensive Player of the Year, two-time rebounding champion, three-time All-NBA Second Team, five-time All-NBA Defensive Team player (Ben Wallace)
2. A five-time All Star, two-time All-NBA Defensive Second Team, one-time All-NBA Second Team player (Chauncey Billups)
3. A three-time All Star (Richard Hamilton)
4. A four-time All Star (Rasheed Wallace)
5. A four-time All-NBA Defensive Second Team player (Tayshaun Prince)
6. A one-time All Star (Mehmet Okur)
7. A Sixth Man of the Year (Corliss Williamson)

Basically, the 2004 Pistons were loaded with talent, and the only reason Detroit didn't become a dynasty is because they wasted their pick in the 2003 draft on Darko Milicic rather than Melo/Wade/Bosh. Detroit never had an A+ level superstar player, but they compensated for it by having a roster that was stuffed with A-level players.

Don't forget Larry B.

[white men can't jump]

The 2004 Pistons didn't have a superstar, marquee-level player but they did have:

1. A four-time All Star, four-time Defensive Player of the Year, two-time rebounding champion, three-time All-NBA Second Team, five-time All-NBA Defensive Team player (Ben Wallace)
2. A five-time All Star, two-time All-NBA Defensive Second Team, one-time All-NBA Second Team player (Chauncey Billups)
3. A three-time All Star (Richard Hamilton)
4. A four-time All Star (Rasheed Wallace)
5. A four-time All-NBA Defensive Second Team player (Tayshaun Prince)
6. A one-time All Star (Mehmet Okur)
7. A Sixth Man of the Year (Corliss Williamson)

Basically, the 2004 Pistons were loaded with talent, and the only reason Detroit didn't become a dynasty is because they wasted their pick in the 2003 draft on Darko Milicic rather than Melo/Wade/Bosh. Detroit never had an A+ level superstar player, but they compensated for it by having a roster that was stuffed with A-level players.

This has got to be in the top 3 worst picks of all time, right?

[magoon]

This has got to be in the top 3 worst picks of all time, right?

I honestly have trouble thinking of a worse one. I mean, Portland picking Sam Bowie in 1984 ahead of MJ, Barkley, Stockton and Alvin Robertson was unfortunate, but Bowie had a perfectly respectable NBA career. Ditto Joe Smith ahead of Sheed, KG and Jerry Stackhouse in 1995 - Smith was never a superstar but he was rock-solid for basically forever.

Maybe Philly picking Shawn Bradley ahead of Penny Hardaway and Jamal Mashburn in 1993, just because everybody at the time agreed it was a really risky pick (as opposed to Darko in 2003, where everybody was convinced for some reason he was a basketball god). That might be a worse pick. Michael Olokowandi (ahead of Vince, Dirk and Paul Pierce) probably has a shot at beating Darko too.

[slaw]

I honestly have trouble thinking of a worse one. I mean, Portland picking Sam Bowie in 1984 ahead of MJ, Barkley, Stockton and Alvin Robertson was unfortunate, but Bowie had a perfectly respectable NBA career. Ditto Joe Smith ahead of Sheed, KG and Jerry Stackhouse in 1995 - Smith was never a superstar but he was rock-solid for basically forever.

Maybe Philly picking Shawn Bradley ahead of Penny Hardaway and Jamal Mashburn in 1993, just because everybody at the time agreed it was a really risky pick (as opposed to Darko in 2003, where everybody was convinced for some reason he was a basketball god). That might be a worse pick. Michael Olokowandi (ahead of Vince, Dirk and Paul Pierce) probably has a shot at beating Darko too.

Put Kwame Brown on the list. 2001 wasn't a great draft but you have 3 All-NBA guys in the top 10 (Chandler, Gasol and Joe Johnson).

Darko was a bad pick cause Detroit based it on one workout. There was an ESPN "oral history" of that draft awhile ago and it was fascinating how the Darko stuff transpired - it was basically all happenstance. If you can find the article it's a great read for ball fans.