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Bargnani vs. Vince Carter - Raptors Legacy

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  • #61
    I voted Bargs negative legacy has had a bigger impact than Vinces positive legacy. And I believe this to be true.
    What did Vince leave behind?
    1. Admittedly created a buzz while he was here and drew attention from US media. But through his whole tenancy, hockey continued to lead the news every night. And the buzz disappeared as soon as he left. A legacy is supposed to live on after you, not end 30 minutes after you leave. So no positive legacy impact just from being here. And anyone that says basketball would have died if he hadn't come along hasn't paid attention to the dollars for this franchise since 1995, when it started. Virtually always been in the top half of money making franchises in the NBA.

    2. Lifted the team while here. Vince was capable of hoisting the raps on his back periodically, and sometimes did so. They were a winning franchise during his stay. On the other hand his leaving (and the way he drove down his own trade value by publicly demanding a trade and taking games off) created a much worse franchise. So no positive lasting legacy from his play.

    3. I'll give you the excitement among young aspiring basketball players and admit that Vince may have been a major part of todays surge of good Canadian basketball talent. On the other hand, just having a team in Canada did have and continues to have an ongoing positive legacy. The Canadian men's basketball team finished 7th in the 2000 Olympics and hasn't qualified to play since. Vince left 9 years ago, so any 20 year old Canadian ball players were 11 then. Not sure how may of the current crop were so excited between the ages of 7 and 11 that they decided to devote themselves sufficiently to basketball so as to become elite talents, and how much of that was simply due to the growth of the basketball infrastructure in Canada because of the Raptors inception in 1995, four years before he arrived. So I will give some credit to Vince, but by no means all. The growth in better high school coaching and in local rep teams etc. started before he came on the scene.

    Bargnani's lasting Negative legacy.
    1. Bargs was chosen first overall in a weak draft. No need to go down the list of ultimately better players to come out of that draft. Bargs has been a net negative player in pretty much every year he has played on the team. Players not chosen by the Raps that year have been net positives. So we can safety say tha the has already had 7 years of negative effect on the Raps. I believe that trumps all potential positives vince may have had.
    2. Having Bargs in house induced BC to try and build a team around AB, making ill-advised trades and free agent acquisitions hoping to some how patch together a Bosh/AB dynamo. Net effect was years of no financial flexibility (still living with it) and missed draft chances (draft picks traded away as BC tried to build around Bargs - not Bargs fault, but there you go, it is what happened).
    3. Bargs showed illusive flashes of potential far more than any other player I have seen in half a lifetime of watching NBA ball, and even after Bosh was gone induced the trading away of picks, and flyers on old, declining free agents.

    Bargs net negative will impact the Raps for at least the next two years, while he is gone. If MLSE hadn't dumped BC it is hard to say how much longer it would have gone...BC may have had to take on some horrendous contract to get AB out of the house.

    Carter's positive impact ended before he even left the team, and the Raps suffered through a complete breakdown for the two years after he was gone. So which legacy will have lasted longer?
    Vinces positive one? Or AB's negative one? I already told you my vote.

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    • #62
      Vince Carter is the reason the Raptors are still in Toronto, and has a huge part to play with the current Canadian crop of talent that's infiltrating the NBA (including Wiggins next year).

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      • #63
        Arsenalist wrote: View Post
        Vince Carter is the reason the Raptors are still in Toronto, and has a huge part to play with the current Canadian crop of talent that's infiltrating the NBA (including Wiggins next year).
        I've been a fan since 1995 and I don't recall any talk, before he was drafted, that the Raps were in danger of being moved to the US. The grizzlies lasted in Vancouver until the end of the 2000-2001 season and all I recall was how much more solid the Toronto franchise was...not because they had Carter, but because all of the Corporate boxes and front row and lower bowl season ticket holders. As I recall there was a requirement to hold Rap season tickets if you had Leaf season tickets for the corporate boxes. That alone ensured the Raps were going nowhere.

        Carter left, the team moved on and are still here. I expect better from you Arse, WRt all the bullshit talk about Carter saving the franchise. The season ticket holders before he put in an appearance were season ticket holders going to "Raptors games", not "Carter Showcases." If they didn't get Carter, they would have been drafting better for the next couple of years and could have come up with good players. Probably not as good as Carter, but certainly good enough to continue playing in TO.

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        • #64
          Arsenalist wrote: View Post
          Vince Carter is the reason the Raptors are still in Toronto, and has a huge part to play with the current Canadian crop of talent that's infiltrating the NBA (including Wiggins next year).
          I don't believe this one bit. If that was the case the Raptors would have relocated after he left but they didn't. I think the team as a whole had more to do with the current Canadian crop of talent than just Carter himself. If they did look up to him, he's not a very good role model considering he ditched the team and then dissed us on national television.

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          • #65
            Arsenalist wrote: View Post
            Vince Carter is the reason the Raptors are still in Toronto, and has a huge part to play with the current Canadian crop of talent that's infiltrating the NBA (including Wiggins next year).
            "The" reason is a stretch. I'd say he played a big role, but you also have to give it to the front office. As terrible as they have been with player management, the business side for Toronto is top notch. The team still thrives and sells out in a hockey-dominated market.

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            • #66
              joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
              Anybody remember this?


              This still gets my riled up though, not going to lie.
              I wanted to rip my hair out and punch my television when this happened. There were about 8 technical fouls called during that game... and then Vince nails a 3 at the buzzer.

              I'm pretty sure I vomited all over my living room carpet. I can't remember though, I blacked out.

              Anyways, Vince should not have his jersey retired in Toronto. He was a dick when he left, we boo him everytime he plays in Toronto, he slaps our players and laughs when he's losing.

              Fuck Vince.
              You come at the King, you best not miss.

              Comment


              • #67
                NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                I don't believe this one bit. If that was the case the Raptors would have relocated after he left but they didn't. I think the team as a whole had more to do with the current Canadian crop of talent than just Carter himself. If they did look up to him, he's not a very good role model considering he ditched the team and then dissed us on national television.
                As I noted in my post, I DO believe Carter electrified the fans and viewers...and there is no doubt that hooked some kids who might have gone on to hockey or some other sport. It also gave young black youth a hero on a Canadian/Toronto team to emulate. I don't think that can be understated.

                But I also stated that the growth in Canadian basketball had already started and would likely have continued, just not to the extent it has today. I think there is a reasonable chance of Canada making it to the final 8 in 2016...and definitely playing for a medal in 2020.

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                • #68
                  NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                  Yes i was quite young. But i still know how it went down, i had cousins who used to follow the Raptors back then. Honestly i think we're overrating his impact. If it wasn't Vince it would have been T Mac or someone else that put us on the map. Vince's crazy dunking skills played a big role though, i'll give you that.
                  The fact is it WAS Vince that put Toronto on the map regardless of whatever other theoretical outcome you want to fantasize about. I'm sure your older cousins can confirm this for you.

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                  • #69
                    Blame Colangelo and if that's not enough blame yourself.

                    Xixak wrote: View Post
                    Which legacy that was left behind is bigger?

                    Bargnani's negative one or Vince Carter's positive one?
                    LOL, I thought this was going to be a trolling thread based on the title. I'm glad that was not the case when I began to read it.

                    Bargnani's legacy is negative due to our own perception. He didn't take himself 1st overall. It is you who is holding him to a standard that he could not fulfill no matter the effort he could have put in.

                    Turns out Bargnani would have been a great late lottery pick.

                    Can somebody tell me how much the Bulls got back for Tyrus Thomas when he left the Bulls? How about when Adam Morrison left the Bobcats? How well did those two work out for the teams who drafted them? I ask this because those guys could conceivably have went 1st overall. I remember reading a few bright "experts" draw a Larry Bird comparison to Adam Morrison at the time.

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                    • #70
                      Look at the young Canadians in the NBA (and those coming up the ranks). VC got them hooked on the Raps, and then into basketball. Not Nash. VC

                      VC captured the imagination of fans. He helped make basketball something young kids could aspire to, instead of lacing on skates.

                      Years later, we STILL talk about VC. How soon will AB be nothing but a footnote on how BC failed in his time here?

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                      • #71
                        unknown guest wrote: View Post
                        Look at the young Canadians in the NBA (and those coming up the ranks). VC got them hooked on the Raps, and then into basketball. Not Nash. VC

                        VC captured the imagination of fans. He helped make basketball something young kids could aspire to, instead of lacing on skates.
                        Carter probably had a bit to do what that, but I think having a team in Toronto (in general) is a bigger reason.

                        It's been 18 years since the Raptors were born. New fans would've been created regardless of who was on the team.

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                        • #72
                          Nilanka wrote: View Post
                          Carter probably had a bit to do what that, but I think having a team in Toronto (in general) is a bigger reason.

                          It's been 18 years since the Raptors were born. New fans would've been created regardless of who was on the team.
                          Yes "new fans" might've been created, but not a hotbed of potential Canadian basketball stars.

                          Having a big NBA name in a city breeds talent. How many top draft picks do you see coming out of places like Milwaukee, Atlanta, Sacramento, Minnesota, etc? These teams haven't really had those brand name type stars that appear on sportscenter every night in the last 20 years.

                          If you grow up watching and idolizing a player who has that wow-factor, you end up trying to emulate their game. It's not an accident that there's been an influx of scoring guards in the NBA from the LA area who all grew up watching Kobe as kids (in fact one of them is on our team).

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                          • #73
                            unknown guest wrote: View Post
                            Look at the young Canadians in the NBA (and those coming up the ranks). VC got them hooked on the Raps, and then into basketball. Not Nash. VC

                            VC captured the imagination of fans. He helped make basketball something young kids could aspire to, instead of lacing on skates.

                            Years later, we STILL talk about VC. How soon will AB be nothing but a footnote on how BC failed in his time here?
                            Kevin Durant's favorite player growing up was Vince Carter. That's one hell of a positive legacy right there. Nuff said.

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                            • #74
                              Xixak wrote: View Post
                              Yes "new fans" might've been created, but not a hotbed of potential Canadian basketball stars.

                              Having a big NBA name in a city breeds talent. How many top draft picks do you see coming out of places like Milwaukee, Atlanta, Sacramento, Minnesota, etc? These teams haven't really had those brand name type stars that appear on sportscenter every night in the last 20 years.

                              If you grow up watching and idolizing a player who has that wow-factor, you end up trying to emulate their game. It's not an accident that there's been an influx of scoring guards in the NBA from the LA area who all grew up watching Kobe as kids (in fact one of them is on our team).
                              So without Kobe, they'd be less scoring guards out of the LA area? I highly doubt that.

                              The GTA (like LA) is one of the biggest metropolitan hubs in North America. With the growing (global) popularity of basketball, it's simply the law of averages at play here, not a magical aura left by Vince's carcass.

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                              • #75
                                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                So without Kobe, they'd be less scoring guards out of the LA area? I highly doubt that.

                                The GTA (like LA) is one of the biggest metropolitan hubs in North America. With the growing (global) popularity of basketball, it's simply the law of averages at play here, not a magical aura left by Vince's carcass.
                                agreed.

                                Even if we want to argue a single player somehow influenced Canadian/Ontarian/Torontonian players to become 'great', why couldn't we argue that said player was Steve Nash? Kid Canada, who every Canadian sports fan knew (if not almost every Canadian), and every Canadian Basketball fan adored, was blowing up the league at the end of Vince's tenure with the Raps. Couldn't that be seen as the greater influence? He proved a Canadian kid could become not only be an allstar, but an MVP, a HoFer and arguably a legend.

                                Guys like Wiggins/Thompson/Bennet were just heading into (or not yet in) their very formative years when Nash and his Suns had eyes glued to TVs, and was a constant on any sports program highlight reel or discussion.

                                Vince was a great player when he was here and trying. But this persona of heroism people are surrounding him with is a bit much. He didn't save a franchise, he didn't build basketball in Canada, he didn't put Toronto on the map, he didn't change the franchises future long term and he didn't do any nation building.

                                What he was, was a very good player who was alot of fun to watch, and gave the team a shot at building a contender. But he gave all that up when he quit and demanded a trade. That in and of itself set this franchise back years.

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