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DeMar DeRozan vs. Rip Hamilton

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  • #31
    golden wrote: View Post
    Nice effort, Xixak. Just for fun, here's another guy eerily similar to both those guys. I suppose it happens a lot if you are only comparing single seasons.

    Ricky "Mr. Triple Double" Davis @ age 26.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...davisri01.html


    POINTS: DeMar - 17.7ppg, Rip - 17.9ppg, Ricky: 17.0
    REBOUNDS: DeMar - 3.8rpg, Rip - 3.6rpg, Ricky: 3.9
    ASSISTS: DeMar - 2.4apg, Rip - 4.0apg, Ricky: 4.4
    TURNOVERS: DeMar - 1.8topg, Rip - 2.7topg, Ricky: 2.4topg
    AST/TO RATIO: DeMar - 1.33, Rip - 1.48, Ricky: 1.83
    STEALS: DeMar - 0.9spg, Rip - 1.3spg, Ricky: 1.0spg
    BLOCKS: DeMar - 0.3bpg, Rip - 0.2bpg, Ricky – 0.2bpg
    FGM/FGA: DeMar - 6.5/14.7 (44.5%), Rip - 6.9/15.1 (45.5%), Ricky – 6.6/14.6 (44.8%)
    FTM/FTA: DeMar - 4.2/5.1 (83.1%), Rip - 3.9/4.4 (86.8%), Ricky – 3.1/3.9 (79.7%)
    3PM/3PA: DeMar - 0.4/1.5 (28.3%), Rip - 0.2/0.9 (26.5%), Ricky – 0.8/2.7 (30.2%)

    PER - DeMar - 14.9, Rip - 16.8, Ricky – 15.6
    TS% - DeMar - 52.3%, Rip - 52.2%, Ricky – 52.1%
    eFG% - DeMar - 45.9%, Rip - 46.2%, Ricky - 47.6%
    Off topic and I apologize for that but sometimes things are too funny to not take a moment to remember.

    LOL - Sloan's comments are great.



    8 years later:

    In an interview posted on NBA.com, Davis talked about his reputation as a selfish player.

    "I did some bad things, but the only thing I regret is my triple-double. But everything else comes with experience. People forget I got drafted when I was 17, so I had a lot of young ‘myself-myself’ attitude, and now it’s more about being part of a team, and more of what I can do to help the team."

    http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports...ill-fated.html

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    • #32
      Good call admins

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      • #33
        We should mention DeMars stats in every thread it makes things a lot more long winded Admins and Mods now know the secret to high post count on the forums its either DeMar or JV views and posts will be through the roof with an hour.

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        • #34
          Puffer wrote: View Post
          Not hating on Demar, but if he is an inefficient shooter, then he may be scoring in bunches, but there are only so many shots a game. If he and Rudy shoot over 50% of the shots, but their poor shooting percentage means that the Raps hit a lower % of their total shots, then if both teams shoot 95 times, the other team wins.

          That's one of the reasons to push DeMar to improve his 3pt %. You can miss more and still score at a higher rate because each shot is worth more. Just under 24 ft to the basket for most of the arc. So why is DeMar shooting from 21 ft out at a 38% clip when he could be shooting from 24 at 30%, and score 50% more for each shot that goes in? Just bad decision making. Or why shoot from inside the top of the arc at 22 ft when he could be shooting a 3 pt shot from the base line at 22 ft?

          there's no hate in these questions, just wondering why the right decisions aren't being made.
          If everyone could take threes at a ridiculous clip then no one would ever take shots from inside the line. But that's obviously not true. You never hear such harsh criticism about the other top scorers in the league.

          You look at those other scorers in the league (take the top 21 including JR smith), all but 5 them average under 2 3pt made a game. That's only a difference of 2 pts.

          Again what the hell is the point of arguing and comparing %s when in the end the actual total, physical difference is literally nothing.

          So what's next?
          He's a volume shooter, his numbers are inflated by his minutes? Doesn't contribute much in other fields? How about I pull out another all-star, say Carmelo Anthony? Is Demar any more or any less of a contributor to melo? Demar has more steals, more assists, less fouls, less turnovers (though they both average about the same in ast, stl per game).

          Melo contributes in scoring and thats what hes getting paid for. The way you people talk here make it sounds like demar needs to lead every single god damn stat in the league for him to earn the respect to stay on our shitty little team here in toronto.

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          • #35
            S.R. wrote: View Post
            Gay and DeMar are not great at moving the ball, statistics be dammed. That Pistons team was extremely cohesive on both ends of the floor. Pipe dream: if only DeMar and Gay improved their 3p% (even to 30-35%) and moved the ball/saw the floor better, I'd expect this team to move up to the 5-7 seed.
            I agree but how much of that is the quality of team mates? Anyone remember Rip when he was with Washington? I remember Jordan not liking his game pretty publicly. He was traded to a skill filled cohesive team and THEN he became the player we all admire.

            There's a lot there that DeMar could learn studying Rip, but there is also a lot that the Raps front office can learn from studying the make up of that team...

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            • #36
              blackjitsu wrote: View Post
              I agree but how much of that is the quality of team mates? Anyone remember Rip when he was with Washington? I remember Jordan not liking his game pretty publicly. He was traded to a skill filled cohesive team and THEN he became the player we all admire.

              There's a lot there that DeMar could learn studying Rip, but there is also a lot that the Raps front office can learn from studying the make up of that team...
              The bold part is quite interesting, as it has been brought up by posters on both the 'pro' and 'anti' side of the DeRozan argument.

              First, management needs to ask themselves whether DeRozan is a good enough player for them to change/build the team around (remember, they already made that mistake with both Bosh & Bargnani). The other option would be to trade DeRozan and keep the rest of the team's core intact. Of course, that is assuming they aren't going to ultimately go with a full rebuild around/with Valanciunas at some point this season.

              Both are viable options, which are dependent partly on weighing what each option would take (giving up in trade) and return (in trade), to compare the net changes to the team. Without knowing what each player would be able to return in trade, it's hard to debate, since we're comparing the unknown team with DeRozan to the unknown team without DeRozan. A lot has to do with how well Gay and Lowry perform in the first half of the season too.

              I am super excited to see what direction MU decides to take this team because, one way or another, I'd be willing to bet that the roster will look significantly different this time next year (and I mean the core, not just all the one-year contract guys he signed this offseason).

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              • #37
                Thornbury wrote: View Post
                Good call admins

                They call me Mr. Clean
                For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                • #38
                  CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                  The bold part is quite interesting, as it has been brought up by posters on both the 'pro' and 'anti' side of the DeRozan argument.

                  First, management needs to ask themselves whether DeRozan is a good enough player for them to change/build the team around (remember, they already made that mistake with both Bosh & Bargnani). The other option would be to trade DeRozan and keep the rest of the team's core intact. Of course, that is assuming they aren't going to ultimately go with a full rebuild around/with Valanciunas at some point this season.

                  Both are viable options, which are dependent partly on weighing what each option would take (giving up in trade) and return (in trade), to compare the net changes to the team. Without knowing what each player would be able to return in trade, it's hard to debate, since we're comparing the unknown team with DeRozan to the unknown team without DeRozan. A lot has to do with how well Gay and Lowry perform in the first half of the season too.

                  I am super excited to see what direction MU decides to take this team because, one way or another, I'd be willing to bet that the roster will look significantly different this time next year (and I mean the core, not just all the one-year contract guys he signed this offseason).
                  Completely disagree with the bold. DeRozan doesn't make "build the team around" money. He makes #3 option money. Guys that you build teams around get max deals (and sometimes even 2nd option caliber players like Gay, Paul George, etc get max deals as well). Take a look at the Warriors, they have 4 players on the roster who make more money than DeRozan. Suggesting that DeRozan has to be the centerpiece just because he makes 9.5M a year is a bit odd.

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                  • #39
                    Xixak wrote: View Post
                    Completely disagree with the bold. DeRozan doesn't make "build the team around" money. He makes #3 option money. Guys that you build teams around get max deals (and sometimes even 2nd option caliber players like Gay, Paul George, etc get max deals as well). Take a look at the Warriors, they have 4 players on the roster who make more money than DeRozan. Suggesting that DeRozan has to be the centerpiece just because he makes 9.5M a year is a bit odd.
                    I never understood the Anti-Demar bashing because he's not an All-Star yet. Since when does your whole starting 5 have to be an all-star to have contending team. This team has a lot more to worry about before upgrading Demar.

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                    • #40
                      I really think people are putting too much emphasis on the ability to shoot the three at the shooting guard position. Yes it's nice, but Memphis and Indiana got to the conference finals without it (and since we're talking about them in this thread, the 03-04 Pistons won the title without it). Lance Stephenson was OK shooting 33% on 62 makes, and Tony Allen was terrible and shot 13% on 3 makes. Neither team really has elite 3 point shooting at any other position (the closest to that would be George on the Pacers, who shot 36% on 6 attempts per game... more volume than efficiency really). Both Memphis and Indiana made less three pointers per game than we did (16th and 30th in the league in makes, we were 15th), and both teams were in the bottom 1/3 of the league in three point shooting percentage.

                      What I'd like to see with DeMar is have him used more off-ball coming off screens, but I'd like those screens to be set lower like what Detroit did with Rip. It'd be nice to see more of his mid-range Js come from 10-16 feet rather than 16-23 feet. That would improve his efficiency, increase his chances of getting fouled and also improve our chances of getting a rebound off a miss.

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                      • #41
                        Xixak wrote: View Post
                        Completely disagree with the bold. DeRozan doesn't make "build the team around" money. He makes #3 option money. Guys that you build teams around get max deals (and sometimes even 2nd option caliber players like Gay, Paul George, etc get max deals as well). Take a look at the Warriors, they have 4 players on the roster who make more money than DeRozan. Suggesting that DeRozan has to be the centerpiece just because he makes 9.5M a year is a bit odd.
                        You completely missed the context of my message, since I was replying to a specific thought blackjitsu had. Go back and read both posts before getting so defensive.

                        Also, our conversation had nothing to do with salary or 3-pt shooting (per the rant in your post that followed the post I quoted). No wonder every discussion about DeRozan becomes such a gong-show!
                        Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Sep 24, 2013, 11:13 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Dino4life wrote: View Post
                          I never understood the Anti-Demar bashing because he's not an All-Star yet. Since when does your whole starting 5 have to be an all-star to have contending team. This team has a lot more to worry about before upgrading Demar.
                          This... DeMar is not paid all-star money. Could someone please name one all-star who isn't on a rookie contract that makes less money than him? DeMar is paid about as much as the 4th or 5th highest paid player on most contenders.

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                          • #43
                            Xixak wrote: View Post
                            This... DeMar is not paid all-star money. Could someone please name one all-star who isn't on a rookie contract that makes less money than him? DeMar is paid about as much as the 4th or 5th highest paid player on most contenders.
                            I am not anti-Demar in anyway, shape or form. The issue with him is whether or not Demar is actually a net positive for the team, especially when defense is taken into account. The jury is out on that one, IMO. The advanced metrics certainly don't seem to favor him either. Also, his offense is still somewhat limited, especially a skill (shooting from distance) that should be a given these days for his position. So, all things considered, it's reasonable for many to have the opinion that Demar is a fairly replaceable player, likely at a much better salary, and not a core piece to be built around.

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                            • #44
                              Xixak wrote: View Post
                              I really think people are putting too much emphasis on the ability to shoot the three at the shooting guard position. Yes it's nice, but Memphis and Indiana got to the conference finals without it (and since we're talking about them in this thread, the 03-04 Pistons won the title without it). Lance Stephenson was OK shooting 33% on 62 makes, and Tony Allen was terrible and shot 13% on 3 makes. Neither team really has elite 3 point shooting at any other position (the closest to that would be George on the Pacers, who shot 36% on 6 attempts per game... more volume than efficiency really). Both Memphis and Indiana made less three pointers per game than we did (16th and 30th in the league in makes, we were 15th), and both teams were in the bottom 1/3 of the league in three point shooting percentage.

                              What I'd like to see with DeMar is have him used more off-ball coming off screens, but I'd like those screens to be set lower like what Detroit did with Rip. It'd be nice to see more of his mid-range Js come from 10-16 feet rather than 16-23 feet. That would improve his efficiency, increase his chances of getting fouled and also improve our chances of getting a rebound off a miss.
                              I love that you stand up for Derozan but you probably shouldn't have brought Tony Allen or Lance Stephenson up. All the DD bashers are going to say that they are elite defenders so that's why they can get away with not having a 3 point shot. Sometimes I feel it's just a waste of time but I love all your posts and I'm a Derozan backer as well so keep it up!
                              I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

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                              • #45
                                Xixak neither Calgary nor I were bashing DeMar. We were just looking at how when Rip was in Washington he was ranked pretty badly. Then when he was traded to a team that fit his style of play he thrived.

                                Rip was the top scorer of those teams but no one would have him ranked higher than Sheed, or Chauncy, or the 'Fro... That said maybe DeMar on the current Raps is more like Rip in Washington and maybe the front office needs to decide whether they want to structure a team into those Pistons (a team where DeMar's skills fit more), OR move him so that he can thrive elsewhere.

                                Neither one of us were disregarding the guy-- more so kind of curious about DeMar's fit on the Raptors as constructed. It MIGHT be easier, for instance, to move DeMar and find a SG who fits the starting lineup better than trading Lowry and finding a starting PG that better matches DeMar's style of play... Comparing Rip and DeMar in a vacuum without looking at the work the front office needs to make for him to thrive seems a bit short sighted IMO.

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