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DeMar DeRozan vs. Rip Hamilton

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  • DeMar DeRozan vs. Rip Hamilton

    DeMar DeRozan is eerily similar to Rip Hamilton on the Detroit Pistons championship team... like twins.

    AGE: DeMar - 24, Rip - 25
    HEIGHT: DeMar - 6'7, Rip - 6'6
    SALARY: DeMar - 9.5M (16.2% of 58M Cap), Rip - 6.5M (15.1% of 43M Cap)

    All stats will be per 36 where applicable. DeMar played 36.7mpg compared to Rip's 35.5 so that's why. Also, if anyone cares, the Pistons and Raptors both played at the 24th fastest pace in these respective seasons (although overall league pace was lower back in 03-04).

    POINTS: DeMar - 17.7ppg, Rip - 17.9ppg
    REBOUNDS: DeMar - 3.8rpg, Rip - 3.6rpg
    ASSISTS: DeMar - 2.4apg, Rip - 4.0apg (Largely a result of being on the best team in the league)
    TURNOVERS: DeMar - 1.8topg, Rip - 2.7topg
    AST/TO RATIO: DeMar - 1.33, Rip - 1.48
    STEALS: DeMar - 0.9spg, Rip - 1.3spg
    BLOCKS: DeMar - 0.3bpg, Rip - 0.2bpg
    FGM/FGA: DeMar - 6.5/14.7 (44.5%), Rip - 6.9/15.1 (45.5%)
    FTM/FTA: DeMar - 4.2/5.1 (83.1%), Rip - 3.9/4.4 (86.8%)
    3PM/3PA: DeMar - 0.4/1.5 (28.3%), Rip - 0.2/0.9 (26.5%)

    PER - DeMar - 14.9, Rip - 16.8 (Difference in assists on Rip's part helps him here)
    TS% - DeMar - 52.3%, Rip - 52.2%
    eFG% - DeMar - 45.9%, Rip - 46.2%

    It's also interesting to look at their shooting splits (check Basketball Reference)

    Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
    DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

    The fact is these two guys at those stages of their careers were very similar players. Rip was actually less efficient earlier on in his career when he was with some awful-to-mediocre Washington teams (TS%s of 48.2, 50.8 and 51.1%). He's also getting a bit of a boost in this comparison by playing on the best team in the league, compared to DeMar playing on one of the worst.

    Also the season I was looking at for Rip here was his 5th season in the league compared to DeMar's 4th. At that point, as I showed earlier in the stats, he was still a bad three point shooter (18 made on 68 attempts for 26.5%). People will try and argue this by pointing to two earlier seasons in his career where he shot 36.4 and 38.1% from three, but these were also on small sample sizes (28 and 16 makes respectively). I think the fact that he shot 27.4% on 146 attempts in his 2nd season, and 26.9% on 119 attempts in his 4th are better indicators of how good he was at shooting from distance (he also shot 29% from 3 through his first 5 seasons).

    Despite this, he was able to shoot 37.5% from three through his last 8 seasons in the league, including a year where he shot 45.8% on 120 attempts. So I'm really not sure why DeMar wouldn't be able to improve his 3-ball as well.

  • #2
    Nice digging Xixak.

    The comparison is uncanny. Though Id say one thing that Rip had a concrete leg up on Demar is with defense. Something Derozan is sub-par at. Offensively though, Rip was a major cog in the championship team, even with favoring the worst shot in the league (mid-range). Demar needs to take after Rips career, and thats a huge compliment for anyone.
    The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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    • #3
      enlightenment wrote: View Post
      Nice digging Xixak.

      The comparison is uncanny. Though Id say one thing that Rip had a concrete leg up on Demar is with defense. Something Derozan is sub-par at. Offensively though, Rip was a major cog in the championship team, even with favoring the worst shot in the league (mid-range). Demar needs to take after Rips career, and thats a huge compliment for anyone.
      I'm not even sure I'd say Rip is a better defender. Being part of one of the best defensive teams in NBA History is going to make anyone look like a better defender than they actually are.

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      • #4
        in before matt

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        • #5


          Seems appropriate DeMar torched him this year. Got under him.

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          • #6
            Watching that makes me impatient. I want the season to have started yesterday.

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            • #7
              Interesting numbers. But keep in mind that 2004 = hand checking. It was the end of that transitional era where they had the Shaq rule (more zone) but hadn't exterminated hand checking yet. Scoring was more difficult, teams were less efficient. It was the period of lockdown defense and iso offense.

              For numbers perspective, 2013 league average TS% is .535, 2004 - .516. So Rip was quite efficient for his era, while DeMar is below average.

              I'll give DeMar this, though -- he has to create much more than Rip ever did. If DeMar took the same shots as Rip, he might be fairly efficient too.

              Then again, that's where prime Rip was beautiful. He got a ton of those shots. To be able to score as much as he did despite being mainly an off the ball offensive player is special. It takes smart non stop movement off the ball and great stamina. Rip was an offensive work horse. Could DeMar develop into a player like that if he was asked to? Maybe. But he's a different type of player now, he's more of a secondary creator.
              Last edited by BobLoblaw; Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:19 PM.

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              • #8
                BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
                Interesting numbers. But keep in mind that 2004 = hand checking. It was the end of that transitional era where they had the Shaq rule (more zone) but hadn't exterminated hand checking yet. Scoring was more difficult, teams were less efficient. It was the period of lockdown defense and iso offense.

                For numbers perspective, 2013 league average TS% is .535, 2004 - .516. So Rip was quite efficient for his era, while DeMar is below average.

                I'll give DeMar this, though -- he has to create much more than Rip ever did. If DeMar took the same shots as Rip, he might be fairly efficient too.

                Then again, that's where prime Rip was beautiful. He got a ton of those shots. To be able to score as much as he did despite being mainly an off the ball offensive player is special. It takes smart non stop movement off the ball and great stamina. Rip was an offensive work horse. Could DeMar develop into a player like that if he was asked to? Maybe. But he's a different type of player now, he's more of a secondary creator.
                These are all valid points. What I'll say about efficiency though is this. Back in 2004, league efficiency was lower not really because of hand-checking, but because way more one-on-one basketball was being played. A lot of teams were running the bulk of their offence through one guy, unlike nowadays where a more team-oriented, ball movement style of play is implemented. Last year in the NBA I believe only 9 guys averaged over 20ppg, in 2004 there were 17. Also teams didn't make as much use of the corner three (except for a select few like the Spurs with Bowen), and advanced stats didn't play as big a role in tactics.

                Basically, while teams may have been less efficient back then, making Rip above average... DeMar likely would've also been above average efficiency in that era (and he probably would be now too if he wasn't used like a primary scorer).

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                • #9
                  Xixak wrote: View Post
                  These are all valid points. What I'll say about efficiency though is this. Back in 2004, league efficiency was lower not really because of hand-checking, but because way more one-on-one basketball was being played. A lot of teams were running the bulk of their offence through one guy, unlike nowadays where a more team-oriented, ball movement style of play is implemented. Last year in the NBA I believe only 9 guys averaged over 20ppg, in 2004 there were 17. Also teams didn't make as much use of the corner three (except for a select few like the Spurs with Bowen), and advanced stats didn't play as big a role in tactics.

                  Basically, while teams may have been less efficient back then, making Rip above average... DeMar likely would've also been above average efficiency in that era (and he probably would be now too if he wasn't used like a primary scorer).
                  Why is DeMar special, or do you mean that all current NBA scorers are better and would rank higher if "teleported" to 2004?

                  I doubt that DeMar would maintain his efficiency, since defense was better.

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                  • #10
                    There are some interesting comparison's, but the game has changed. I'm not sure Rip Hamilton's skill set would be seen as valuable as it was in the early 2000's.
                    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                    "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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                    • #11
                      Few stats perhaps worth noting:

                      pace - Toronto 90.4 Detroit 87.9
                      The raw data stated above is not just on less minutes a game, but also less possession a game.

                      assist% - Demar 12% vs Rip Hamilton 22%
                      (*I also don't think its fair claiming assist numbers were based off of the 'quality' of Detroits team that year - Detroit had an ortg of 102 that year vs Toronto's 105.9 this year. ie. Hamilton almost doubled Demar in assists despite a "worse" offensive team)

                      DWS - Demar 1.4 Rip 4.4
                      (thats unadjusted for minutes where Rip played less minutes)

                      WS/48 - Demar .075 Rip .141

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                      • #12
                        BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
                        Interesting numbers. But keep in mind that 2004 = hand checking. It was the end of that transitional era where they had the Shaq rule (more zone) but hadn't exterminated hand checking yet. Scoring was more difficult, teams were less efficient. It was the period of lockdown defense and iso offense.

                        For numbers perspective, 2013 league average TS% is .535, 2004 - .516. So Rip was quite efficient for his era, while DeMar is below average.

                        I'll give DeMar this, though -- he has to create much more than Rip ever did. If DeMar took the same shots as Rip, he might be fairly efficient too.

                        Then again, that's where prime Rip was beautiful. He got a ton of those shots. To be able to score as much as he did despite being mainly an off the ball offensive player is special. It takes smart non stop movement off the ball and great stamina. Rip was an offensive work horse. Could DeMar develop into a player like that if he was asked to? Maybe. But he's a different type of player now, he's more of a secondary creator.
                        Some great comments Bobloblaw. I don't think it's quite fair to compare DeMar and Rip, just yet. Perhaps their stats fall in line, but Rip was a maestro with his mid range game and stamina. Defenders would look broken by the end of games after trying to keep up with Rip for 4 quarters. Detroit would run plays for him to come off multiple screens to get an open jump shot, just like Boston would do for Ray Allen, that is how automatic he seemed to be with his mid range game.

                        If DeMar can master the mid range jump shot, with his size and jumping ability he could be deadly, but he has a long, long way to go imo.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Craiger wrote: View Post
                          Few stats perhaps worth noting:

                          pace - Toronto 90.4 Detroit 87.9
                          The raw data stated above is not just on less minutes a game, but also less possession a game.
                          I actually did talk about pace right here:

                          "Also, if anyone cares, the Pistons and Raptors both played at the 24th fastest pace in these respective seasons (although overall league pace was lower back in 03-04)."

                          assist% - Demar 12% vs Rip Hamilton 22%
                          (*I also don't think its fair claiming assist numbers were based off of the 'quality' of Detroits team that year - Detroit had an ortg of 102 that year vs Toronto's 105.9 this year. ie. Hamilton almost doubled Demar in assists despite a "worse" offensive team)
                          Rip in 03-04 was definitely a better passer than DeRozan is right now, but let's not forget that was his 5th season and he actually saw quite a big jump in assists that year (he averaged about 2.8 in the previous 4 seasons), and was much more prone to turning over the ball as a result of that. As we both acknowledged, the Pistons played at a little slower pace than the Raptors did last year and used less possessions, but despite this Rip still turned the ball over just under 3 times per game and his ast/to ratio of 1.48 was only marginally higher than DeMar's of 1.33.

                          DWS - Demar 1.4 Rip 4.4
                          (thats unadjusted for minutes where Rip played less minutes)

                          WS/48 - Demar .075 Rip .141

                          Win Shares are largely impacted by how good the team you play on is. If you move a player to a better team and give them the same role (which is exactly what happened with Rip when he moved from WAS to DET), their win shares will increase. This is why his WS/48 jumped from 0.087 in his last season with a 37 win Washington team, to 0.141 with the NBA Champion Detroit Pistons. Rip's DWS in his last year in Washington was 0.6 compared to 1.6 for DeMar last season.

                          This isn't some isolated case, for example Chauncey Billups never posted a DWS higher than 1.5 before joining the Pistons in 02-03, then posted a 4.2 DWS in 03-04 when the Pistons peaked defensively (he has never touched that mark since in his career).

                          DWS really doesn't measure individual defense at all (neither does dRTG btw). It just gives high marks to players that play a ton of minutes on good defensive teams, some examples:

                          Zach Randolph (10th in DWS last season because Memphis ranked 2nd in defense last year. Funny enough, Gasol was 2nd in the league, Conley 7th and Tony Allen 14th... this order also happens to directly coincide with their minutes played.)

                          Carlos Boozer (13th in DWS last year, Bulls were 6th in defense, don't think anybody actually considers Boozer to be some sort of elite defender)

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                          • #14
                            Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                            Some great comments Bobloblaw. I don't think it's quite fair to compare DeMar and Rip, just yet. Perhaps their stats fall in line, but Rip was a maestro with his mid range game and stamina. Defenders would look broken by the end of games after trying to keep up with Rip for 4 quarters. Detroit would run plays for him to come off multiple screens to get an open jump shot, just like Boston would do for Ray Allen, that is how automatic he seemed to be with his mid range game.

                            If DeMar can master the mid range jump shot, with his size and jumping ability he could be deadly, but he has a long, long way to go imo.
                            Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
                            DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

                            I don't think it has anything to do with DeMar having a long way to go as a mid-range jump-shooter. It has more to do with this team having a long-way to go in terms of sets, philosophy, and simply just having better talent. I think DeMar could be used in the Rip role perfectly, but we didn't really have that luxury because defenses were keying in on him before Gay showed up (especially since Lowry was hurt for a ton of games). Despite that his efficiency was virtually identical to Rip's.

                            Basically the issue is that DeMar has been groomed to be Kobe when he really should be trying to be Rip. Both guys have similar skillsets, DeMar is stronger but Rip was probably quicker. This is why I hate reading that DeMar and Gay can't coexist because both of them need the ball. People need to understand that DeMar DOESN'T need the ball, in fact his skillset warrants playing him off it. Run him off screens for mid-range Js or quick slashes to the bucket, let him post up smaller guards, and also make use of the corner 3. Those skills are more valuable on a contender than simply having a 3+D player. 3+D is cool and all when LeBron is on your team and can orchestrate your entire offense for you, but ask Danny Green or even Paul George how much fun they had trying to use the in between game in the playoffs when they have 0 ability to do anything between 10-23 feet? That's where playoff games are won, mid-range.

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                            • #15
                              You make a great case Xixak.
                              I love the comparison. If Demar can sit down and watch some film on Rip and how Rip moved off the ball (one of the best in the game), then that could add a whole other level to Demars game.

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