Not just J.V on this team!

[drunkmunky]

I mean, you can't have it both ways. You can't say it's great for them to play for the national team but it's bad for their development. There is not a single player I can think of whose development it's hindered. And in most cases it has actually helped guys become better NBA players. So I really don't get why anyone would be against it.

I'm not saying international play is 'bad' for their development. I'm saying, at an nba level, there has been evidence as per the progress made in the off season by other members on this team that individually training in north america with nba level staff, understanding the specifics of the nba game and breaking down every single element, or weakness of nba style play is a much more effective means to improve JV during his time in Toronto than playing Eurobasket.

Based on that, I think JV could be using his time more effectively.

Based on HOW he is used by the Lithuanian national team, they are under utilizing him in his position, his strength, his size, and his speed in a line-up that is packed with bigs.

It's not the right situation for him.

[white men can't jump]

I mean, if it in no way hurt, and likely helped Yao Ming's development, who coming from China had maybe the biggest adjustment to make of any star in NBA history, then I really can't see it being anything but good for a player as long as he has the drive to get better....which if he doesn't, it doesn't matter how he's training in the summer (see Bargnani).

[white men can't jump]

I'm not saying international play is 'bad' for their development. I'm saying, at an nba level, there has been evidence as per the progress made in the off season by other members on this team that individually training in north america with nba level staff, understanding the specifics of the nba game and breaking down every single element, or weakness of nba style play is a much more effective means to improve JV during his time in Toronto than playing Eurobasket.

Evidence such as? No guy on Toronto in recent years has made any "wow" jumps in development in the summer. So I don't know what you're talking about.

*And DeMar, the only guy who has really made noticeable, though minor, improvements...even he really seemed to start getting it after his first summer iwth the USA select team. So again, the role of national programs are crucial, even for Americans.

[Nilanka]

How can you have a competent management team if we're constantly losing and aiming for the lottery!!?? You find someone who aims to lose competent? We're not the celtics....at least they have a championship within the last 5 years.

My point is basically that the grass is not always "greener on the other side". If your gonna trade away most of the top 10 picks you currently have, you BETTER make sure that you end up with better talent than you had. If you cannot guarantee that you will get better talent (*reminder* draft is a crap shoot) you should play to win the games and give an honest effort to put a winning team on the floor NOW. It's not a fear of making bad picks....its a recognition of reality and a choice to keep your integrity.

That being said if we have a major injury or two.....I accept the fact that we'll be heading to the lottery.

You're right, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. The element of risk will be there no matter which path you choose.

But just remember, the grass isn't very "green" on the current side either.

[mcHAPPY]

I don't really wanna get into a back and forth because i do respect your passion as a Raptor Fan BUT just some months ago you were pleading for us to go out and trade young talent (ED/Demar) for Rudy and now your crying cap space!!?? Come on man.....at least be consistent!

The draft is a crap shoot. Some talent can be drafted later and many drafted early don't pan out due to injuries or just BUST. Guys like MKG, Derrick Williams, (insert name here) is a dime a dozen. I'm saying the draft is great, but you don't ruin your team for a chance at luck.

You wanted Rudy, so you should be at least willing to see where we're at with him for half the season. If not, then why make the push to have him here??

You should go back and look at my posts and reasons behind trading for Gay. There are numerous CBA factors that were negated by other moves. The biggest thing of course was Bargnani. I have admitted fault/wrong with him - and still do - but the notion was always about building around what the Raptors already had. One of those things was a borderline all-star stretch four. Bargnani had the talent to be this but not the heart or body.

I am consistent. I consistently want what is best for Toronto. That doesn't mean I have to tie my opinions to one stance. As circumstances change, so can opinions. In this case it has.

I wanted Rudy under the pretense of a borderline stretch four being on the roster. After that ship sailed, I wanted Rudy as a means of maximizing asset value and adding talent to the roster. I still believe the Raptors will be able to do more with Rudy as an asset than they would have with Calderon off the books, Ed Davis, and a 2nd round pick.

The Raptors have already had half a season. It was not pretty. The preseason continues to be not pretty and I have yet to see any meaningful change in the strategy or utilization of talent from last year to this year.

New management with ridiculous draft history and having their careers begin in scouting combined with a cap guru who helped the league design the CBA makes me believe that maximizing current assets, building through the draft, and using cap space as more than a tool for signing free agents is the way for this franchise to truly become great.

The problem with the Raptors now - and what separates them from the Memphis' and Indiana's and Houston's - is the Raptors have no cap space. The 3 previously mentioned teams used their cap space to add significant pieces to their current rosters. The Raptors do not have that ability with the roster as is.

As for the draft being a crap shoot, you have a point in some respects. However, while it may be a crap shoot it is the way the majority of teams obtain their all-stars and it is also draft picks and prospects, in addition to cap relief, that most teams are looking for when trading an all-star talent. But to say it is totally 100% luck is a cop out in my opinion. There is definitely an element of luck but as my signature says homework and politics factor in and some GM's, including Weltman and Masai, have shown a knack for maximizing their draft opportunities.

[p00ka]

It is a very good and worthwhile point. It should also be noted he was well in to his 30's though. Dirk was a huge factor in that team but the Chandler acquisition along with great coaching would have had more of an effect on their winning than Dirk not playing in the summer.

I definitely think once a player hits late 20's to 30 he should stop playing. I was very much opposed to Calderon playing given his injury history and age.

Oh, I didn't say they won the championship solely because Dirk took the summer off, but was responding to a comment about how Dirk worked with his national team every summer and it didn't hurt him. Just a point of interest (not proof of anything) that Dirk's greatest success was when he hadn't played for Germany in 2 years. Perhaps Dirk is not the greatest example to use?

I agree that age is a big factor in the value, or detriment, of playing for a national team in the summer. The thing is, just as I agree that players should back off as they get older, I also see fault in a very young Euro, trying to adjust to a much more rigorous season, and playing a very different style of the game, spending his summer playing the style he already has ingrained in him since he was a child. Given another year or two of adjusting to and understanding the NBA game, he would have an easier time switching between the two, I would think.

[drunkmunky]

@ white men can't jump

Looking at today's article on Rudy Gay and his development for improved shot selection, less rushing shots, and tackling weaknesses in his game in addition to working with Olajuwon for a short period of time. Combating his physical weakness in his back.

Demar and the praise that Casey has given him with his off-season progress that has resulted in a much touted and improved Defence. The mention of his 3's has been infinite even though we haven't had much of a chance to see it with their limited playing time.

Lowry and his recognition that he needs to become the commander of this team and the recognition that Casey has given back to him as the leader on the court.

What skill has JV learned over the off season besides getting big? His interviews are about his 'physicality'. Only since training camp have we heard that he is working on his 'verticality' for jumping and blocking like Hibert.

[white men can't jump]

@ white men can't jump

Looking at today's article on Rudy Gay and his development for improved shot selection, less rushing shots, and tackling weaknesses in his game in addition to working with Olajuwon for a short period of time. Combating his physical weakness in his back.

Demar and the praise that Casey has given him with his off-season progress that has resulted in a much touted and improved Defence. The mention of his 3's has been infinite even though we haven't had much of a chance to see it with their limited playing time.

Lowry and his recognition that he needs to become the commander of this team and the recognition that Casey has given back to him as the leader on the court.

What skill has JV learned over the off season besides getting big? His interviews are about his 'physicality'. Only since training camp have we heard that he is working on his 'verticality' for jumping and blocking like Hibert.

Wow, seriously man? Have you seen Jonas finishing hooks with both hands? Have you seen him being more comfortable passing out of the block or when he's on the move? Have you seen him being far more patient than last year in general when he's got the ball? He didn't just get bigger, and if that's what you think you're totally blind and/or ignorant. Every aspect of his game is better, including his D, which he really got to improve WITH Lithuania. They were a far better defensive team with him on the court as he did a good job protecting the rim and being a physical force down low...which you talk about how many "bigs" they had, but they really didn't, since none were actually comparable to JV in terms of being able to shoulder that load down low.

What have we seen from the Raps? The only guy who looks like a different player on the floor is DeMar. And I expected him to improve because he has that drive, and he's still young enough to hope or that.

Lowry? It's nice that he's not fat anymore, but his game hasn't really changed at all. What evidence is there that he actually improved as a floor general and leader? None.

Gay? The biggest things they've talked about with him are his body and eyesight. So far he seems to be pretty much exactly the same player as he's been his whole career.

It's like you're taking the preseason media garbage about these guys as the definitive information source.

[p00ka]

But he didn't train all summer to reinforce it. The style is different, but the rule differences are minor, and what a player has to work on is really not at all affected by that difference in style, especially as a true C, which is maybe the most consistent position across the globe in terms of what's demanded from a guy, whereas PFs, wings and PGs all have very different roles in international play.

I mean, you can't have it both ways. You can't say it's great for them to play for the national team but it's bad for their development. There is not a single player I can think of whose development it's hindered. And in most cases it has actually helped guys become better NBA players. So I really don't get why anyone would be against it.

I wasn't saying I want it both ways, but my point was that at this stage of his career, perhaps working within FIBA rules/style is not great for his much needed NBA development. As far as roles of a C being the same, c'mon man. Basket interference, 3-second rule, contact allowed, the way the rest of the team plays ("whereas PFs, wings and PGs all have very different roles') create big differences in how a C needs to play.

[drunkmunky]

Wow, seriously man? Have you seen Jonas finishing hooks with both hands? Have you seen him being more comfortable passing out of the block or when he's on the move? Have you seen him being far more patient than last year in general when he's got the ball?

He didn't just get bigger, and if that's what you think you're totally blind and/or ignorant. Every aspect of his game is better, including his D, which he really got to improve WITH Lithuania. They were a far better defensive team with him on the court as he did a good job protecting the rim and being a physical force down low...which you talk about how many "bigs" they had, but they really didn't, since none were actually comparable to JV in terms of being able to shoulder that load down low.

Of course I'm not blind or ignorant or else the discussion wouldn't have gone into this depth. I wanted you to tell me what you thought Jonas was improving and in my view. I think all of the upside you were talking about, he was already doing all of that in the month of March last season when he was recognized as the rookie of the month.

The strength that he's gained has helped that tremendously, but he still has conditioning issues playing for longer periods of time at the NBA level. The fact that he had no competition during the summer league or eurobasketball emphasized his growth, but not at an nba level.

I don't disagree that the Lith. national team was better when he was on the court, but only when he was on the court. I grew extremely frustrated that JV sat on the bench so often in order to allow players like the Twin's as well as the 2 other guys ( I forgot their names ) to play. There was this one game where JV only played in the 3rd and got pulled, or pulled in the first 5 minutes for stupid fouls.

It was as if the Lith coach punished him for playing Summer League and NBA ball. I don't think that environment is right for him to continuing growing as a potential future nba all-star.

[drunkmunky]

What have we seen from the Raps? The only guy who looks like a different player on the floor is DeMar. And I expected him to improve because he has that drive, and he's still young enough to hope or that.

Lowry? It's nice that he's not fat anymore, but his game hasn't really changed at all. What evidence is there that he actually improved as a floor general and leader? None.

Gay? The biggest things they've talked about with him are his body and eyesight. So far he seems to be pretty much exactly the same player as he's been his whole career.

It's like you're taking the preseason media garbage about these guys as the definitive information source.

I've only quoted Dwayne Casey, the only reputable non-media based or media-biased source for team performance. If you haven't seen the difference in how Demar and Lowry play during their limited time in pre-season, you should revisit their performance tonight *hopefully they don't suck balls to completely destroy my point*

[ezz_bee]

For those you arguing that Jonas is not Jesus Christ, i would have to agree. However, a bunch of people at Grantland have started to refer to him as Jonas Christ Valancuinas.

Jonas knows what people say about him on this thread and he never forgets.

[white men can't jump]

I've only quoted Dwayne Casey, the only reputable non-media based or media-biased source for team performance. If you haven't seen the difference in how Demar and Lowry play during their limited time in pre-season, you should revisit their performance tonight *hopefully they don't suck balls to completely destroy my point*

Dwayne Casey is biased. Of course he is. He's not going to throw a player under the bus. He's also been praising jsut about everyone, including the likes of Austin Daye, who clearly is far away from being a valuable roster piece, despite any "hard work" that the coach is praising him for.

I have seen the difference in DeMar. I said that already. He very obviously has seemed to improve this offseason. But I also think he very obviously has been improving on the right trajectory basically for at least the last 2-3 summers. Coincidentally, or not, that is when he started playing with the USA select team. Somethig he has admitted changed his approach and attention to detail when training.

Lowry though? Lowry is not doing anything he hasn't done previously in his career. Last year he was out of shape, and the PG situation was not good for his type of personality. But in Houston he played better than anything he's shown while with the Raps, including in this small preseason sample that he's done well in. He's also in a contract year and has a lot at stake. But in terms of development...such as improving skills or better understanding how to run his team....he is hardly ahead of where he was last year. In fact, his timing and passing as a distributor are still evidently rusty (which I expect to improve with more games), since there's clearly absolutely no way to keep those sharp unless you keep playing at a high level in the summer.

[white men can't jump]

I wasn't saying I want it both ways, but my point was that at this stage of his career, perhaps working within FIBA rules/style is not great for his much needed NBA development. As far as roles of a C being the same, c'mon man. Basket interference, 3-second rule, contact allowed, the way the rest of the team plays ("whereas PFs, wings and PGs all have very different roles') create big differences in how a C needs to play.

Different rules don't change the role a lot. A big man is still expected to do things from the point of view of playing in the post, or in the middle, or whatever you want to call it. Being an anchor who can score and suck in the help D. Being able to pass out of it. Being a threat to hit mid-range jumpers to pull the opposing big away from the bucket. And on D it's being a rim protector. Clogging space in the lanes so that wings can't cut/drive. The differences in rules are really minor details. It doesn't really change how you should rotate, or hedge, or play in the post, etc...The style of play is less different for bigs than it is for the other positions.

Whereas the other positions....PF is very often a stretch 4 style of player that is not too different in skill set from the wings. And wings are expected to generally be better shooters, and be good at moving without the ball, which is supposed to stick a lot less in the international game. It's not like the NBA where wings get a lot more freedom to attack as iso players, be it from the perimeter or the post. And the same goes for PG, where they are also not supposed to let the ball stick too much. Really the style a non-big has to play is quite different in international ball. You could even see it by how team USA refocused their program.

[p00ka]

Different rules don't change the role a lot. A big man is still expected to do things from the point of view of playing in the post, or in the middle, or whatever you want to call it. Being an anchor who can score and suck in the help D. Being able to pass out of it. Being a threat to hit mid-range jumpers to pull the opposing big away from the bucket. And on D it's being a rim protector. Clogging space in the lanes so that wings can't cut/drive. The differences in rules are really minor details. It doesn't really change how you should rotate, or hedge, or play in the post, etc...The style of play is less different for bigs than it is for the other positions.

Whereas the other positions....PF is very often a stretch 4 style of player that is not too different in skill set from the wings. And wings are expected to generally be better shooters, and be good at moving without the ball, which is supposed to stick a lot less in the international game. It's not like the NBA where wings get a lot more freedom to attack as iso players, be it from the perimeter or the post. And the same goes for PG, where they are also not supposed to let the ball stick too much. Really the style a non-big has to play is quite different in international ball. You could even see it by how team USA refocused their program.

You mean like how Dwight played all of 16 MPG in the 2008 Olympics, with Bosh the only other "C" playing 17 MPG,, and in the 2012 games, Chandler played all of 11 MPG, while Davis, the only other "C", played 7 MPG,,,,, because the C position is the same deal as the NBA? I see