For the people that think DeRozan is overpaid

[Puffer]

Depends on what you consider is efficient, and if you're saying $9.5M for a 20ppg pure scorer, I say no.

I thought he meant "an efficient 20+ ppg" in the sense of 20+ppg with a decent Fg %.

[Blacklash2k4]

There's nothing telling you to enter this thread. Stay out and post in a different one or log out of the forum.

I'm not saying that I have to post, but it's such a unnecessary thread. You're only posting thread to fuel your ego. It's an immature thread and I personally think it should be locked. But I'm not an admin, so nothing I can do but post my two cents. Btw, you aren't obligated to comment on my comment either so...

[Blacklash2k4]

I am taking it easy. If he doesn't like the thread topic he shouldn't enter the thread. Pretty simple.

Like I said before, you only posted this to fuel your ego. I'm merely posting my opinion on the redundant nature of your thread. If you're not gonna post a thread taking about Demar not being overpaid (which everyone agrees is a topic that should be dead by now), at least find an old thread that is taking about the same thing. We don't need another one of these threads.

[p00ka]

Matt, I don't know why you're bothering. Why bother trying to convince people who are so impressed by dunks and ppg?

Especially considering nobody here fits such a simple minded description, so it's a matter of "trying to convince" phantoms. Why bother, indeed.

[Xixak]

Lol Matt52 is a huge hypocrite.

[ezz_bee]

Bold 2: Where did you read that? I said between $6-7 million, and if I was not clear enough I meant per year.

The range you gave was 6-7 mil, which to meant that you think it is very conceivable that the biggest offer he would get would be 6 mil. Or were you saying that all offers would fall between the 6-7mil range? In that case the winning/biggest offer would be 7 mil.

Bold 3: It is not semantics.

I agree that cap space is not semantics, the semantics I was referring to, is that valuation is only objective to a certain point. If you say the biggest possible offer is 7 mil, and I say the the biggest possible offer is 10 mil, there's really no way to say unequivocally who is right, because we can't know who was right until the player goes to free agency. If I can't convince you that it's possible 1 team would offer derozan 10 mil a year and you can't convince me that not a single team would offer a penny more than 7mil, eventually we just have to agree to disagree. Or find an arbiter.

Bold 4: while my math was not exact the difference between a $6.5M and $9.5M contract is almost 50%.

Right, but if we take you 7 mil, figure it's almost exactly 35%.

Bold 5: DeRozan is going to continuously improve year after year? How do you know? When you're paying for potential you might get Amir and you might get Stuckey.

The thing is I'm saying his contract is fine assuming he doesn't REGRESS, which i do think is a safe assumption. I'm not expecting him to improve, except by VERY modest amounts, and I don't think he'll need to in order to be worth his contract, ESPECIALLY in year 3. Is he worth 9.5 mill this season? Maybe not. Do I think it's entirely possible that he'd have been offered 3 years and 30 million? Absolutely it's possible.

How much is 9.5 million worth 3 years from now, in today's dollars?

[ezz_bee]

Matt, I don't know why you're bothering. Why bother trying to convince people who are so impressed by dunks and ppg?

I'm not impressed by dunks or ppg. I've been fairly staunch in my belief that we won't see much improve from derozan this year. I'd have ZERO problem if we traded him. My argument is that his contract is NOT a bad contract. It may not be amazing or the best possible value contract for Derozan, but it's hard to argue that derozan is wildly overpaid. I would argue that Derozan is an easily movable contract should Ujiri decide that's the way to go. If he wants until next year, it'll be one of the easier contracts to move.

[mcHAPPY]

The range you gave was 6-7 mil, which to meant that you think it is very conceivable that the biggest offer he would get would be 6 mil. Or were you saying that all offers would fall between the 6-7mil range? In that case the winning/biggest offer would be 7 mil.



I agree that cap space is not semantics, the semantics I was referring to, is that valuation is only objective to a certain point. If you say the biggest possible offer is 7 mil, and I say the the biggest possible offer is 10 mil, there's really no way to say unequivocally who is right, because we can't know who was right until the player goes to free agency. If I can't convince you that it's possible 1 team would offer derozan 10 mil a year and you can't convince me that not a single team would offer a penny more than 7mil, eventually we just have to agree to disagree. Or find an arbiter.



Right, but if we take you 7 mil, figure it's almost exactly 35%.



The thing is I'm saying his contract is fine assuming he doesn't REGRESS, which i do think is a safe assumption. I'm not expecting him to improve, except by VERY modest amounts, and I don't think he'll need to in order to be worth his contract, ESPECIALLY in year 3. Is he worth 9.5 mill this season? Maybe not. Do I think it's entirely possible that he'd have been offered 3 years and 30 million? Absolutely it's possible.

How much is 9.5 million worth 3 years from now, in today's dollars?

Bold 1: as always

Bold 2: and 35% is still a lot more

Bold 3: And in that case he would have been paid about 5%/$500K more than he is now and Ujiri would have had a choice to make. I can live with that. However, BC gave up all leverage in the RFA process. Just as you believe it is possible he would have received 3/$30 or 4/$28, I think it is possible he receives 3/$21. Anyone offering 3/$30 are paying for potential. His production did not justify it. With the new CBA and the implications of overpriced salaries along with the rising weight many front offices place on analytics combined with the nature of RFA, I don't think $6-7M is unreasonable when looking at DD making the choice between $24-28M guaranteed or $6M to become an UFA.

Bold 4: Considering the world is a deflationary spiral where central banks all over the world are creating more debt to solve a sovereign debt crisis (who'd of thunk the solution to too much debt is to create more of it!), I would say $9.5M in 3 years will be worth more than it is today.

[ezz_bee]

Lest people get the wrong impression, I'm PRO-VALUE when it comes to bball decisions (which means my philosophy is more aligned with pro-tank, than anti-tank, even though i think the whole to tank or not to tank debate is misguided). I'm also anti-derozan. The NBA is a 3 point league and Dero can't shoot them, he's not the defender he should be with his athleticism, he's a ball stopping wing who takes to many mid-range jumpers and he isn't terrible efficient at shooting them. BUT my problem with derozan is not his contract.

Why?

Derozan's contract is a NON-ISSUE because it is easy to move. Even if we all agree that Derozan is overpaid this year (which I'm happy to agree to btw, although he's only very SLIGHTLY overpaid IMO), how hard is it going to be for Ujiri to move him? This is the guy that got rid of Barg's w/out taking on any poisonous contracts. He's going to have no problem shipping Demar out. He'll probably be able to ship demar out for a less talented player on a better value contract, heck Ujiri may even be able to get an equally talented player on a better value contract.

Anyway, I actually don't care that much about Demar, I just think that his contract isn't a problem, because

1) over the length of his contract, I believe worst case scenario is that his contract is a wash

2) he's easily moved for other contracts that are definitely not a problem in terms of value and cap space.

BUT if you disagree, that's not a problem. BUT we really should be complaining about his shot selection, not his contract.

For the record, I'm huge MATT52 fanboy, and any disagreement I have with him is intellectual not personal.

[mcHAPPY]

Lest people get the wrong impression, I'm PRO-VALUE when it comes to bball decisions (which means my philosophy is more aligned with pro-tank, than anti-tank, even though i think the whole to tank or not to tank debate is misguided). I'm also anti-derozan. The NBA is a 3 point league and Dero can't shoot them, he's not the defender he should be with his athleticism, he's a ball stopping wing who takes to many mid-range jumpers and he isn't terrible efficient at shooting them. BUT my problem with derozan is not his contract.

Why?

Derozan's contract is a NON-ISSUE because it is easy to move. Even if we all agree that Derozan is overpaid this year (which I'm happy to agree to btw, although he's only very SLIGHTLY overpaid IMO), how hard is it going to be for Ujiri to move him? This is the guy that got rid of Barg's w/out taking on any poisonous contracts. He's going to have no problem shipping Demar out. He'll probably be able to ship demar out for a less talented player on a better value contract, heck Ujiri may even be able to get an equally talented player on a better value contract.

Anyway, I actually don't care that much about Demar, I just think that his contract isn't a problem, because

1) over the length of his contract, I believe worst case scenario is that his contract is a wash

2) he's easily moved for other contracts that are definitely not a problem in terms of value and cap space.

BUT if you disagree, that's not a problem. BUT we really should be complaining about his shot selection, not his contract.

For the record, I'm huge MATT52 fanboy, and any disagreement I have with him is intellectual not personal.

Ahhhh shucks. Great to have two discussions in last two days with people of differing view that did not go to, well, sh!t.

The contract length point you raise is significant. There was a time when extensions and contracts were 7 years! Then 6. Now 5 for bird FA/rookie designation and 4 for everyone else. Even bad contracts aren't as bad as they were a short time ago.

[mcHAPPY]

If Derozan is only slightly overpaid, why is poor Nick Young only getting 1 yr/$1.1 million from Le Show du Lac?

Character and reputation appears to be valued at $8.4m

[Puffer]

Character and reputation appears to be valued at $8.4m

That's just mean Matt. :-)

[Axel]

To me, the biggest error with Derozan's extension was that it really seemed like BC was bidding against himself. $6M-$7M seemed like the much more reasonable rate, and if Demar was pushing for something higher, say $10M, then you let him play it out and match the offer sheet.

BC bid against himself and bet that Demar was going to be make huge strides last year, thus driving up his cost, which is as much about BC's faith in his guys than anything else. No one else seemed to believe that Demar would earn a $10M+ offer sheet but if he did then you deal with it. You can still sign the guy before he gets an offer sheet, and since Demar loves Toronto, there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't at least try to deal before taking other offers.

[mcHAPPY]

That's just mean Matt. :-)

Lol I wasn't trying to be!

People always talk about the intangibles, demar certainly brings them if he truly is how portrayed in media.

[Axel]

I think it's entirely likely that Demar's contract negotiations went like this:

BC - Demar, we are thinking around $6M...
DD - Bryan, you gave $6.2M to Landry Fields.....so....
BC - $9.5M it is!