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Casey - First coach to be fired?

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  • #16
    Dino4life wrote: View Post
    If players get traded, Casey stays the whole season and just doesn't get extented.
    If players dont get traded, Casey goes and a coach with prior Winning experience gets hired to led us in the playoffs.
    I don't see the point of trading guys but keeping Casey. They are not related. Casey has to be evaluated relative to the coach's job and expectations. For this team, that is helping players grow. So far, Casey has not shown much promise in this area, in all his years here.

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    • #17
      white men can't jump wrote: View Post
      So what would it take to bring Stan Van Gundy in (next season of course)?

      Honestly, just curious what people think are the chances. I think it would necessitate at least ending up with a promising rookie in this draft. Getting Wiggins would definitely qualify, as having him and a promising C in Jonas would definitely be enticing for any coach. Not sure what other '14 draft players would be that appealing. Obviously Parker, Smart and Randle could be.

      I do think it would require having what looks like a young core that can be built to win. I think Jonas is a decent start, as you know SVG would have to be happy about a well-grounded C who shoots FTs well after coaching Howard for a few years. If we can't get a stud in the draft, it might take landing someone like a Rondo or other big name.

      A positive is that with Leiweke and Ujiri, the team has management that is secure and ambitious. If SVG came next season, on say a 4-year contract that would align with Ujiri's, that would be a pretty good deal for a coach. He knows he'll have time to work on the team, and he'll have the GM behind him. Their fates would be tied together, but Ujiri-Van Gundy seems like a very promising tandem if Leiweke wants to build a winner.
      SVG is a great hire in a couple of seasons.

      I think this is what goes down:

      Casey gets fired for 2013-14
      Interim coach is named for rest of season as tank ensues
      interim coach is likely kept for 2014-15 assuming players respond to his teaching and he develops talent
      2015-16 is when shit gets real with real expectations after solid drafting and possible big time free agent in 2015 (loads of cap space) and unless interim coach has shown great promise, bring in SVG

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      • #18
        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
        I don't see the point of trading guys but keeping Casey. They are not related. Casey has to be evaluated relative to the coach's job and expectations. For this team, that is helping players grow. So far, Casey has not shown much promise in this area, in all his years here.
        Its not so much about casey, its about hiring a new guy. Its about breaking that cycle of making shit up on the fly, one second we're building, one second we're going for the playoff, the next we're so bad everyone involved needs to get fired, the next on second thought we might be good enough. There is no point in hiring someone Mid-season unless we know clearly what we have and where we are going.

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        • #19
          I can't comment on if he'll be the first to go... but usually the coach that gets fired first is a coach of a team that has huge expectations. Toronto have no expectations so he will probably stick around for a bit.

          However, Casey has two faults in my opinion that probably deserve for him to get fired.

          One is that he is not very good at developing talent. The players are definitely to blame for some of their growth, but the coach should be able to get the most out of his players. I'm not seeing that with either Ross, JV, Acy or Bucyks. So if you need a coach to help develop the youth, he'd be a bad choice.

          The other is that he's not a very good X's and O's type of coach. He doesn't seem strategic enough for me to be able to put a proper game plan together. He might be able to get away with a few things in the regular season but when play calling is crucial in the playoffs I don't think he will be successful.. at least the last 2+ seasons haven't shown that to me.

          Typically if the team was planning to blow it up then having a lame duck coach in place is fine. But since he's bad at developing his youth (in my opinion) he doesn't deserve to stay. Good guy but to be frank I'd rather have Triano than Casey and that's saying a lot. If the team was trying to make it into the playoffs and grow from there, then having a coach that isn't very good at game planning (again in my opinion) will make it difficult for the team to take that next step.

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          • #20
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            SVG is a great hire in a couple of seasons.

            I think this is what goes down:

            Casey gets fired for 2013-14
            Interim coach is named for rest of season as tank ensues
            interim coach is likely kept for 2014-15 assuming players respond to his teaching and he develops talent
            2015-16 is when shit gets real with real expectations after solid drafting and possible big time free agent in 2015 (loads of cap space) and unless interim coach has shown great promise, bring in SVG
            I don't actually like that plan. You're basically creating a lame duck situation for 2 years in a row with an interim head coach. Makes it hard on the coach and less likely to be the best option for the players. It could work, but I wouldn't be optimistic.

            Now, SVG aside, I'd really like them to find a coach that they want to be the face of the team. That will imprint his personality and work ethic on the team. That's what good coaches do, and it doesn't hurt to have them in place at the early stages of the team's and players' development. It's not like Van Gundy's bad for player development.

            Yes you want him in place when you have a strong team, and he may be less likely to take a job with a team that isn't in such a good position, but that's why I asked what it would take.
            -I think any coach would be excited at the prospect of coaching two young studs if they land one in the draft this year to pair with Jonas.
            -I think they'd obviously have to offer him great money, and as I said, with Ujiri around for 4 more years at least, it's an easy reason to structure a new coach's contract to match that.

            Now I don't think this is all very likely to happen in general, but I can't think of a current jobless coach I want more. Sloan I like a lot, but is probably at least about equally as unlikely to happen.

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            • #21
              Dino4life wrote: View Post
              Its not so much about casey, its about hiring a new guy. Its about breaking that cycle of making shit up on the fly, one second we're building, one second we're going for the playoff, the next we're so bad everyone involved needs to get fired, the next on second thought we might be good enough. There is no point in hiring someone Mid-season unless we know clearly what we have and where we are going.
              Except that you can't view it as a continuation of such trends, because those were the doings of the previous manager, who also put Casey in place. They don't have to hire someone mid-season, but firing Casey would just be one more step toward totally cleaning house from the BC era, and not at all indicative of a continually unstable situation, especially if keeping Casey as a coach fosters inherent instability with respect to how the team plays, and how guys are developed.

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              • #22
                Too early for this talk.
                Mamba Mentality

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                • #23
                  white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                  Except that you can't view it as a continuation of such trends, because those were the doings of the previous manager, who also put Casey in place. They don't have to hire someone mid-season, but firing Casey would just be one more step toward totally cleaning house from the BC era, and not at all indicative of a continually unstable situation, especially if keeping Casey as a coach fosters inherent instability with respect to how the team plays, and how guys are developed.
                  Firing Casey mid-season, and not hiring the guy you want mid-season, means putting in an assistant coach who knows he's gonna get fired at the end of the season whether the team wins or looses. What is firing Casey in December instead of April going to accomplish ? Impulsive moves are what doomed this franchise. Masai had since May/April until training Camp to fire & replace Casey, he choose not to, he had his reasons we don't know about. If masai decides 45 days in that casey is not the right guy, then we got to Question Messiah's decision making process.

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                  • #24
                    TRex wrote: View Post
                    Too early for this talk.
                    thats what im saying! people are ridiculous. Fans here are so wishy washy its a joke
                    We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Ambidextrious wrote: View Post
                      thats what im saying! people are ridiculous. Fans here are so wishy washy its a joke
                      I think you're just looking at it differently.
                      A touch more mellow / less critical than myself.

                      To me, it has nothing to do with wins or losses, and it doesn't start with the 2013/2014 regular season.
                      The qualms I have with the man are the same I had last season, and in pre-season.

                      Like I said, judging a coach is different from judging a player.
                      Frankly, I don't think teams should be patient with coaches beyond the getting to know each other stage.
                      You can't wait for a coach to learn how to implement offensive sets.
                      If he can't, he's not good enough.
                      Casey can't.

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                      • #26
                        Dino4life wrote: View Post
                        Firing Casey mid-season, and not hiring the guy you want mid-season, means putting in an assistant coach who knows he's gonna get fired at the end of the season whether the team wins or looses. What is firing Casey in December instead of April going to accomplish ? Impulsive moves are what doomed this franchise. Masai had since May/April until training Camp to fire & replace Casey, he choose not to, he had his reasons we don't know about. If masai decides 45 days in that casey is not the right guy, then we got to Question Messiah's decision making process.
                        If Casey is bad for the growth of players, which is what has been preached as the most important aspect of this season, the earlier he's fired, the better. If coach X can run a better team from that perspective even just for a few months before being fired, everybody wins except Casey. The team gets better player development, which makes it easier for Ujiri to do his job regarding evaluating and possibly moving guys. The new coach gets the chance to run an NBA team, which I'm sure both likely top candidates, Bayno and Nurse, would really appreciate even just for a few months.

                        It's not an impulsive move because of timing, it's just decisive. I don't think it makes us have to question anything. If Casey is obviously wrong for the team, and Masai decides to keep him the whole year, that raises more questions to me than firing him at an earlier juncture.

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                        • #27
                          Dino4life wrote: View Post
                          Impulsive moves are what doomed this franchise.
                          How many coaches last 3 full seasons without once making the playoffs?
                          (How many coaches last 3 full seasons period?)

                          I'm really confused by this sentiment.
                          Casey was on thin ice coming into the season.

                          Some of you are really buying into this "Colangelo wouldn't let me coach" argument.

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                          • #28
                            white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                            If Casey is bad for the growth of players, which is what has been preached as the most important aspect of this season, the earlier he's fired, the better. If coach X can run a better team from that perspective even just for a few months before being fired, everybody wins except Casey. The team gets better player development, which makes it easier for Ujiri to do his job regarding evaluating and possibly moving guys. The new coach gets the chance to run an NBA team, which I'm sure both likely top candidates, Bayno and Nurse, would really appreciate even just for a few months.

                            It's not an impulsive move because of timing, it's just decisive. I don't think it makes us have to question anything. If Casey is obviously wrong for the team, and Masai decides to keep him the whole year, that raises more questions to me than firing him at an earlier juncture.
                            Casey is exactly the same as he was last year. It just now less fans are making excuses, if casey wasn't bad for player devolpment, in May he's not bad after 2 games, no one was saying anything during camp or preseason. now after 2 games we know more about casey then over the last 2 years & a half ? When Casey met with Masai wasn't the selling point that he wasn't going to interfere like the last guy, he was going to let him coach and then judge him when its done. Now you want masai to act like the last guy ? You say the new guy wins, how ? you win, he doesn't, he left a comfy job to come here, the teams talented players get traded away, he gets to put looses on his professional resume, then in 3-4 months you fire him and send him to find a new job with that stained resume ? you can look for positive signs all you want, it might even be better in the long run. But its still impulsive, still reminiscing of last regime, and Masai word/credibility takes a hit, just so Ross gets more minutes & Valanciunas gets more touches ? i think there's better ways to fix that ie talk it out with the coach.

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                            • #29
                              white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                              So what would it take to bring Stan Van Gundy in (next season of course)?

                              Honestly, just curious what people think are the chances. I think it would necessitate at least ending up with a promising rookie in this draft. Getting Wiggins would definitely qualify, as having him and a promising C in Jonas would definitely be enticing for any coach. Not sure what other '14 draft players would be that appealing. Obviously Parker, Smart and Randle could be.

                              I do think it would require having what looks like a young core that can be built to win. I think Jonas is a decent start, as you know SVG would have to be happy about a well-grounded C who shoots FTs well after coaching Howard for a few years. If we can't get a stud in the draft, it might take landing someone like a Rondo or other big name.

                              A positive is that with Leiweke and Ujiri, the team has management that is secure and ambitious. If SVG came next season, on say a 4-year contract that would align with Ujiri's, that would be a pretty good deal for a coach. He knows he'll have time to work on the team, and he'll have the GM behind him. Their fates would be tied together, but Ujiri-Van Gundy seems like a very promising tandem if Leiweke wants to build a winner.
                              I remember watching an interview with SVG last year where he said that if he did come back to coaching that he would never go anywhere that gets cold, his family wouldn't allow it, and his daughter wouldn't be able to ride horses or something lol. Anyway he seemed very serious about it.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Ambidextrious wrote: View Post
                                thats what im saying! people are ridiculous. Fans here are so wishy washy its a joke
                                Its third season arleady? Too early for who? Stone, Buycks, yes maybe. Casey is different topic though.
                                Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

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