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Stop that tankin sh*t mentality

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  • #76
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    A grueling 7-game series vs. the Pelicans for the title of 17th best team in the NBA, would be friggin' epic!!!
    Maybe we can petition the league to add this. It might be the fastest way for the Raps to actually make the play-offs.
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • #77
      Axel wrote: View Post
      Maybe we can petition the league to add this. It might be the fastest way for the Raps to actually make the play-offs.
      I have a better idea, use this to determine the draft order for the first 14 picks.

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      • #78
        peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
        I have a better idea, use this to determine the draft order for the first 14 picks.
        How would that make any sense? The team that "wins" would get the number 1 pick? Then the truely worst teams are forever stuck without much hope. Otherwise, you'd just have teams openly tanking games to lose to get the pick, which would be more obvious than it is now.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • #79
          peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
          I have a better idea, use this to determine the draft order for the first 14 picks.
          That doesn't help the truly terrible teams get better, which is the purpose of the current draft process.

          EDIT: Axel beat me to it.

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          • #80
            Did anyone here know that we're actually the 6th youngest team in the entire NBA? Sorry this link is the only one i could find without doing an extensive search.....

            http://en.hispanosnba.com/teams/comparison

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            • #81
              Axel wrote: View Post
              How would that make any sense? The team that "wins" would get the number 1 pick? Then the truely worst teams are forever stuck without much hope. Otherwise, you'd just have teams openly tanking games to lose to get the pick, which would be more obvious than it is now.
              I hate the idea of tanking for a high pick, this would prevent that, but what you could do is have the top 5 picks be determined this way, then it's the worst teams from 6-14. I hate the idea of rewarding losers.

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              • #82
                This whole argument comes down to disagreement of the definition of "tanking". Its simply a sliding scale of "Win Now" vs "Youth Movement".

                I have yet to see a 100% win now argument. This would involve cashing in all your draft picks and young players with potential for slightly better veteran players who may be on the talent decline within a year. An example of this would involve trading Jonas for Tyson Chandler, Pau Gasol, etc. Trading Ross for Alan Anderson, Jameer Nelson, etc. It would be an all or nothing shot at any trade deadline rentals and aging stars with inflated contracts all while going into the tax.

                If we truly went into a win-now mode our playoff chances would go from 25% to 90% in the east and we might even be able to avoid the 7-8 seeding. The team would suffer heavily within a year or two as the assets we gave up matured into better options than the ones they were cashed in for. We'd hit rock bottom and be Boston without their last few draft picks. It could take 5 years or more to regain even a chance at the playoffs.

                I am at about 2 out of 10 on the "Win now" scale - I'd rather see them move their mature and expiring assets for mid-late first rounders/prospects provided that they have the potential to provide more than what is given up. I think their are alot of other teams in the same situation with fanbases/GM's that lack the poise and patience of Masai Ujiri - that would give up future assets for current ones.
                When Tom Chambers dunks an NBA player gets their hops...

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                • #83
                  I love how there's this idea that timely losing is somehow immoral behaviour.

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                  • #84
                    peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
                    I hate the idea of tanking for a high pick, this would prevent that, but what you could do is have the top 5 picks be determined this way, then it's the worst teams from 6-14. I hate the idea of rewarding losers.
                    Then explain to me why the NBA champs shouldn't receive the 1st pick ever year.

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                    • #85
                      peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
                      I hate the idea of tanking for a high pick, this would prevent that, but what you could do is have the top 5 picks be determined this way, then it's the worst teams from 6-14. I hate the idea of rewarding losers.
                      The draft is to help competitive balance by awarding the worst teams with the best chance to improve. That has nothing to do with tanking. Ruining the lottery just so you feel better about potential tanking is just plain stupid.

                      If you put all the lottery teams into a play-off, what hope do you sell to a really bad team? The 6th pick when all the teams you are battling with for the playoffs are getting better picks? You might as well just slot the draft based on team popularity, and everyone would just stay in their tier for all-time. It would basically be the caste system, which wasn't good enough for 18th century England, so I'm not sure why you'd want it for the NBA, since the Raps would likely be low down.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        special1 wrote: View Post
                        Did anyone here know that we're actually the 6th youngest team in the entire NBA? Sorry this link is the only one i could find without doing an extensive search.....

                        http://en.hispanosnba.com/teams/comparison
                        Along with 13 other teams at 25 years.

                        We're also the 6th highest payroll this year.

                        http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

                        Fun times.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          peanutwoozle wrote: View Post
                          I hate the idea of tanking for a high pick, this would prevent that, but what you could do is have the top 5 picks be determined this way, then it's the worst teams from 6-14. I hate the idea of rewarding losers.
                          I agree, in all major sports, despite being a pro-tanker Raps fan this season.

                          The concept is that all teams are healthy and 100% competing for the playoffs, with the draft going in reverse order of the standings. Pretty simple and makes absolute sense, in theory.

                          There are lots of holes in the theory:
                          - some teams are purposefully bad (at the GM level, I don't believe the coach/players are)
                          - a team that loses a star to injury may inadvertently be bad for a season (ie: how the Spurs got Duncan)
                          - a team that narrowly misses the playoffs (ie: a pretty good team) might win the lottery against all odds (ie: Orlando getting Penny Hardaway & Shaq)
                          - a team might give 100% to legitimately fight for playoffs in the first half, only to end up well behind, then make future-looking trades at the trade deadline (somehow this 2nd-half tanking is acceptable, but full-season tanking is not)
                          - a team might give 100% to legitimately fight for playoffs even into the second half, only to be eliminated early, at which time they make the remainder of the season all about giving playing time to young players (again, is this a legit team-building strategy or short-term tanking; if the former, why isn't an entire season of this not acceptable?)

                          I don't think you'll ever get a perfect system, because there are some controllable factors (ie: moves by GM, playing time given by coach) and some non-controllable factors (ie: injury). When you add in the lottery factor (which has some pros & cons) and the fact that so many of these factors are subjective (ie: did the GM really add the best possible players in the offseason? is trying to win now or developing for the future the best coaching strategy for a young team?), I don't think any draft system will ever be ideal.

                          In that case, is tanking cheating, or is it just a GM being a realist and taking advantage of the system? I get arguments for both sides, but it's a matter of what's "fair/legal" VS what's "right" - and everybody has their own opinion of what "right" is.

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                          • #88
                            special1 wrote: View Post
                            I still think its too early to write this group off...However, i'm not advocating extending Rudy and Kyle either.....Still on a wait and see. I'd be fine if we trade Rudy and/or Kyle (both could leave at the end of the season anyways). I was one of the few that argued against them coming here in the first place.
                            If you're ok with trading Lowry and Gay, wouldn't that essentially signal a tank? These guys will be traded with the future in mind....most likely.

                            Unless you think Masai will get equal (or better) players in return in an attempt to win now.

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                            • #89
                              special1 wrote: View Post
                              Did anyone here know that we're actually the 6th youngest team in the entire NBA? Sorry this link is the only one i could find without doing an extensive search.....

                              http://en.hispanosnba.com/teams/comparison
                              Doesn't mean anything.

                              The only reason we're one of the youngest is because Ujiri signed a ton of young guys to fill out our bench instead of veterans like most teams do.

                              If you look at our actual core, it's not THAT young.

                              Lowry, Gay, Amir, Hansbrough are all known commodities; Fields and DD might have a LITTLE room left for growth but not much.

                              Ross is pretty old for a sophomore and Valanciunas is the only core guy I'd actually say is "young".

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                              • #90
                                Anti-Tankers, a tank wouldn't take THAT long

                                Imo it'd only really be a 2 year process, maybe 1.

                                I'm of firm belief that Valanciunas is a star talent, and Amir Johnson is definitely capable of being the first big off the bench (maybe even a starter) on a championship level team. DeRozan can actually be a good complementary scorer as well (3rd option or so), and I think with less pressure on him to score he can devote more energy to rebounding (5+ per game), finding open teammates and defending at a higher level.

                                Say you flip Gay to Charlotte for Gordon, MKG/Biyombo and the Blazers pick (let's say they squeak into playoffs and it's 15th or so).

                                Send Lowry to maybe Houston or the Knicks for a later 1st round pick.

                                Get the tank rolling, the team would basically be atrocious with Buycks or whoever running the point and essentially no bench depth. We'd definitely be in the running for a top 3 pick.

                                Select Wiggins/Parker/Randle/(Insert star prospect here) in the draft.

                                The two later picks could be packaged for one of the top PG prospects (maybe Andrew Harrison)

                                We'd have a ton of cap space, with the potential to go after maybe Gordon Hayward as a complementary wing piece to our top pick.


                                Harrison
                                DeRozan
                                Hayward
                                Randle
                                Valanciunas

                                Isn't really out of the question by the end of the season.

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