Jack Armstrong: Gay/DD are NOT selfish players

[Superjudge]

Good post.

[mcHAPPY]

That certain player WAS the problem (defensively and rebounding wise - for a PF/C)..... he's gone and this team is better for it. Is that even a debate around here??? Why are we still holding onto the past. BC is gone. AB is gone. DC is free to actually play is style of basketball and we're currently tied for 4th in Opponent Points per game. Is this not a positive that we should embrace?? This core can be a good defensive unit and i just don't think many fans realize this.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...PointsOpponent

I'm holding on to the past because the past is still a part of the present.

We're tied for 4th in opponents points per game yet after playing such lightweights as Atlanta, Boston, Charlotte, Milwaukee, Utah, and a team clearly in decline in Memphis the Raptors are sporting a 4-5 record.

This fan wants more than .500 ball

I look forward to the days without posting after the next loss. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't post. I'm saying I wish you'd post this optimistic outlook after losses to teams such as Charlotte. Wins over Memphis (sans Hollins), Utah, Milwaukee, and Boston are not inspiring my confidence. Also playing in a weak division and winning is kind of a hollow feat after 2006-07 when other teams rebuilt around the Raptors and the Raptors stayed average until they turned awful.

[white men can't jump]

Good points. Many of the tankers on this site don't see the glaring weaknesses of the tanking strategy. Even when Cleveland drafted Lebron how many championships did they win?

Ok, disclaimer: I'm not hardcore tank or anti-tank. I trust Masai/management to make the most of our assets. To me that can mean the tanking route, or if a great player becomes available and gettable, even upgrading the team.

However, I'm so freakin sick of seeing this argument on the forums. As if the fact that some teams have failed to win championships with drafted franchise players makes it a predictable trend. Often they point to LeBron. At this time, I would like to present all the modern dynasties:

-Showtime Lakers: Didn't draft Kareem, but did draft Magic and Worthy (as well as other pieces of their dynasty).
-Bird Celtics: Drafted Bird and cleverly turned their top pick in 1980 into both Robert Parish from GSW, and the Warriors #3 pick which they used on McHale.
-Jordan Bulls: Drafted Jordan, and acquired Pippen (the #5 pick) for Olden Polynice (8th pick in same draft) and future draft options.
-Spurs: We all know they drafted Robinson and Duncan. Yes they have done well drafting outside the lottery, but they've still depended on the lottery to get foundational pieces.

All these teams depended on the lottery to set the wheels in motion of what would become some of the greatest basketball teams and dynasties in the NBA.

The recent teams that haven't? Kobe Lakers...The team that arguably has the biggest advantage in free agency. Anyone else with sustained success without getting their core piece in the lottery? Miami maybe? They did pick Wade, and they didn't really use clever management to get their big 3. It's a lot easier when players start conspiring together a couple of years before their free agency. Don't think that's too likely to happen again, especially in Toronto's favour.

[Superjudge]

bang on. refuting the draft is ridiculous.

[mcHAPPY]

I just want to see my team playing hard and winning as much as possible. Isn't this why we play and watch sports?? The Chicago Cubs haven't won a championship (world series) in over 100 years.....Boston Red Sox went like 86 or 88 years between World Series Victories until they broke the curse in 2004.

Guys - we're fans right?? Who knows if we'll ever win a NBA Title.... Cleveland couldn't win with one of the best of all time. Dirk is an awesome player and we would be lucky to draft him right? He won his title in his 13th year in the league. There's more to being a fan than caring about when/where your team loses.

A good lesson to learn is not everyone is going to share your values.... and that is alright.

Believing others must share your beliefs, values, and judgements is a cognitive distortion.

[Superjudge]

God knows I had to learn it (and am still learning) cuz my opinions are CRAZY!

[special1]

Don't get me wrong, I'm tired of the losing as well, and I'm sure there are a lot of Raptor fans that would rather watch a good team that wins 50 games, but doesn't have a shot at a championship than go through another blow up. However, some of us want to know our team at least has a shot.

So how exactly will your team have a shot (anytime in the present) if your tanking?? Are you talking about years down the road? You must be! Then after you have your pieces (from tanking), you'll likely be right back in the same situation we are right now. Tanking is a mirage. A hope for the future by LOSING MORE now. I think a lot of posters just refuse to believe that you can win now and also win in the future.

[special1]

Ha.

Bud, here's where you're wrong. There isn't a code of ethics for being a "fan". The minute you truly believe there is one, you are no longer a fan, but the actual word...a FANATIC.

The NBA, NHL, MLB, or whatever you like, these are all examples of Sports entertainment. Entertainment is for leisure, people are free to take from them what they need in order to be happy. There are no rules, there are no good fans, or bad fans. Just fans. I don't need some guy who perhaps is a thousand times more emotionally attached to a Sports franchise than I could ever fathom to be to tell me that I am doing it wrong. Ever.

If I wanna see a team lose, so they can draft the first ever Canadian Born potential phenom 1rst over all, than thats my choice, my reasons are not "flawed", nor are they "uneducated" (trust me, I know the sports game pretty well). I wanna see it happen because its fun, and interesting, and exciting. the story would be amazing. Mediocrity isn't' even a story, its just...blah. Getting the first round pick at #1 isn't the last step, its the first, and mostly EVERYONE that supports a tank gets this, THIS is what I can't understand about what the Anti-tankers keep posting about what we want.... you don't seem to understand why we want a tank in the first place.

I can tell ya this much....it aint cuz were bad fans. Moreso, we just see a plan.

Dude - I'm not here to try to tell posters to be better fans. If you want to put your hopes and dreams in a lottery GO AHEAD. Enjoy your losses and i truly hope we get that #1 pick. I mean.....there's only like 29 other teams that would LOVE to get that #1 pick right??

[Superjudge]

Yep, all 30 want it, it just isn't important to you.

Where oh WHERE should I put my trust???

[NoPropsneeded]

I'm in the grey area right now. Not sure if I want us to tank or win. I mean if they can somehow put it together and win 44+ games then I'm happy. I won't be mad if they don't, I'm not getting my hopes up yet lol

[special1]

Cleveland had an impatient owner and a childish star demanding win now at all costs which caused the GM to make some really short sighted trades that left the Cavs with few draft picks and no flexibility with overpaid players on the decline.

Orlando got to the finals with a core that did not have the same type of success in the next couple of years and then had a GM made awful awful awful decisions that turned the team quite average despite coaching and franchise C (who became a drama queen).

OKC has Durant, Ibaka, and Westbrook and of course had Harden. They now find themselves in a small market facing the realities of the CBA.

NY and Denver are proof you can't win with a self centered volume shooter.

Blake Griffin is 24 but more importantly they have a Chris Paul in his prime.

Deron Williams became a self obsessed breast like many others who caused Sloan to quit. However he did take them to the playoffs 4 straight years with a conference finals, 2 second round, and a first round loss. Not bad. Certainly much more success than the Raptors have EVER had.


In all your examples you ignore poor managerial decisions of those teams and, in OKC case, the realities of small market teams.


Your solution to keep going in the middle of the draft ignores some realities such as:
1) of the 150 spots on all-NBA first, second or third teams in the past decade, only 12 players have earned one who weren’t lottery picks.
2) the Raptors might have owners willing to spend in to the luxury tax but I doubt they will do it for a first round ceiling team or a playoff bubble team. Also there are the realities of the CBA placing real limits on how much they can spend.


DD is not a star player. Neither is Rudy. Lowry is not either. Valanciunas might be but the conservative in me would plan for just an above average starting C.

You need elite talent to win. Toronto does not have it. How will they trade for it? How will they sign it? They will not. They need to draft it...... unless you are banking on becoming the 2004 Pistons as the only team in the last 34 years who did not draft a franchise corner stone in the lottery to win a championship. That there requires more luck I would think.

A lot there, so i won't stray from the point. See all the excuses you had for every team above? *Insert Toronto* and make up an excuse.....

People are not perfect and neither are GMs. They ALL make mistakes. Therefore, its inevitable that you will have an excuse for us as well (if we were LUCKY enough to get the players above). Especially the childish star part.....GEEZ....That's like guaranteed!

Isn't it possible if we win 45-50 games that a star free agent may want to sign here?? Our cap situation may be very different (even in one year). Think positive or you may want to cheer for another team. This team as constructed WILL be competitive.

[special1]

Yep, all 30 want it, it just isn't important to you.

Where oh WHERE should I put my trust???

You can start with JV (you know the guy in your tanking picture)....I wonder what he thinks about you cheering for him to lose..... hmmmmm

[psrs1]

A lot there, so i won't stray from the point. See all the excuses you had for every team above? *Insert Toronto* and make up an excuse.....

People are not perfect and neither are GMs. They ALL make mistakes. Therefore, its inevitable that you will have an excuse for us as well (if we were LUCKY enough to get the players above). Especially the childish star part.....GEEZ....That's like guaranteed!

Isn't it possible if we win 45-50 games that a star free agent may want to sign here?? Our cap situation may be very different (even in one year). Think positive or you may want to cheer for another team. This team as constructed WILL be competitive.

Even if one wants to trade DD and RG it is in the best interest of the team to be competitive to increase their value. This may also open up some doors re free agency. I understand the rationale for tanking --I just think it is flawed.

[psrs1]

So how exactly will your team have a shot (anytime in the present) if your tanking?? Are you talking about years down the road? You must be! Then after you have your pieces (from tanking), you'll likely be right back in the same situation we are right now. Tanking is a mirage. A hope for the future by LOSING MORE now. I think a lot of posters just refuse to believe that you can win now and also win in the future.

I think you nailed it re many posters on this site...

[jimmie]

Isn't it possible if we win 45-50 games that a star free agent may want to sign here?? Our cap situation may be very different (even in one year). Think positive or you may want to cheer for another team. This team as constructed WILL be competitive.

Can you elaborate on this a bit?

- It is *possible* that a star FA will be agreeable to signing in TO if this team wins 45-50 games. That's technically true. It's not likely, though, given history. And what, pray tell, would we pay this star FA with? Which of the 2014 FA class are you interested in?

- Our cap situation may be different. That's also technically true. But how will it be different? Not sure how you intend to do this. You need a plan. Or at least an idea.

- Think positive or cheer for another team? Thanks for the advice. I offer that those who don't see a championship future in the core of DD, Gay and Lowry ARE thinking positive. We want to see this team win a championship before 2050. Some would say a true fan shouldn't settle for anything less...

- This team as constructed WILL be competitive... Strong words -- based on what? Most NBA experts don't agree. Then again, this goes to the point above: what do you consider 'competitive', and what are you ultimate goals for the Raptors. If a 1st-round exit each year = 'competitive', then we're just different kinds of fans.