Unbalanced NBA?

[Axel]

I'm no sociologist, but what does any of this have to do with the Raptors playing basketball?

[mcHAPPY]

i'm no sociologist, but what does any of this have to do with the raptors playing basketball?

taaaaaaaaaaaaaank!

[CalgaryRapsFan]

You know I almost posted more on this, I was going to add major markets in Canada as well. I don't expect many to even completely grasp what I'm saying, although clearly you do and I appreciate that.

Look, people can ignore what they want, the truth is not always something were proud of but it isn't something you can hide from. You can go deeper, you can get into social and racial demographics, and the loyalties that lie there as well. Not long ago, during NBA CBA lockout negotiations, they started referring to the Owners as "slave owners". Not exactly hard to see an underlying issue there, and further to that, the social climate created (or the simply already existed).

The NBA can't change it, so they won't, instead they built an empire on promoting individual success over that of the "team", because the demograpic they were selling to didn't feel as if they could relate to the "team" in the first place. Why the hell would a young black kid identify with the wished of an all white leadership group, it makes no sense given the centuries of horror that built the social obstacles in place. But could they indentify with the strong, young, black man fighting aginst a white ownership to get his? Hell yes. Hence you have a society of young kids who grow up to be NBA players that could give a shit about team, or ownership.

Not a popular post? Maybe not, but ask Jalen rose, or any of the fab five how they feel, they will set ya straight. There is unbalance for a lot of reasons, and I am not entirely sure I blame the players, but its pretty damned deep and complicated and it isn't something you can change without the owners themselves making significant changes to how they do business, and that includes the League head office.

The only caveat to this line of thinking is that I don't see it being nearly as much of an issue in other sports. Many MLB and NFL players from the same demographic are able to buy-in to the team concept, mainly because they're more obviously team sports.

The NBA, or any pickup basketball game, can be dominated by one player - regardless of the player's demographic. It doesn't help that for years the NBA portrayed itself almost as a counter-culture sport to the vastly more popular MLB & NFL, building an image around the hip-hop lifestyle. On that point, I agree with you that the league itself needs to own much of the blame. I think that point came to a head when Stern started requiring players to cover their tattoos and such, seemingly shunning the very sub-culture that helped grow the NBA's popularity.

I still think it's more about the nature of basketball, than the nature of any demographic though.

[S.R.]

I'm no sociologist, but what does any of this have to do with the Raptors playing basketball?

Rudy Gay and DeMar Derozan.

[Superjudge]

well thats where numbers on the floor come in. One guy CAN make a huge difference, for good or for bad. But not all players are motivated by winning, unless it comes with them attaining the highest possible attention and credit. The reasons are there, you can argue um if ya want.... I'm not sure I would one way or another, it isn't for me to say. But think of it like this, NBA players, get recruited out of public school systems in the US, many (almost all) young black kids who are then brought to upper class white private schools so they can help the team win and keep the schools reputation high, as they are PRIVATE SCHOOLS, people pay for that prestige. In return the kids have a better chance to get recruited, if they post big numbers. Then, they go to college, and make the college, again, HUGE dollars, like millions, yet cannot take a pair of free shoes or they are suspended and stripped of all their success, add to that, made into national sports pariahs...... are ya with me here so far..... I 'm building the basis for a climate that is manifested at the next level.

these kids, now young men, leave and hit the NBA. They are told from day one that they are a brand, a commodity. Sure winning makes their brand bigger, but immediate success and fame is predicated upon individual success. Hence, guys are out to "get theirs" and fast. what happens then..... well, they play 5-6 years and make a ton of cash, grow, mature, then think "legacy". Time for a championship. Aint getting that in a small market, and your agent wants no part of a small market as he cannot maximize returns there, and fucked if you aint on board for that, so you do what you can to get to another market, and if you hate where you are...well, see Vince Carter. Now this has been on going so there are established "good locations" and dreaded "bad locations". There are ups and downs in each, but for the most part its consistent over a longer time frame.

Stern tried to "fix" it by putting bandaids on a problem he himself masterminded. It is going to be WAY harder than that man. Way harder. All I know, is that from a completely basketball mindset, i HATE all that me first bullshit, but as a man, looking at another man, having not walked in his shoes..... I cant bring myself to blame the players. Not one bit.

[S.R.]

well thats where numbers on the floor come in. One guy CAN make a huge difference, for good or for bad. But not all players are motivated by winning, unless it comes with them attaining the highest possible attention and credit. The reasons are there, you can argue um if ya want.... I'm not sure I would one way or another, it isn't for me to say. But think of it like this, NBA players, get recruited out of public school systems in the US, many (almost all) young black kids who are then brought to upper class white private schools so they can help the team win and keep the schools reputation high, as they are PRIVATE SCHOOLS, people pay for that prestige. In return the kids have a better chance to get recruited, if they post big numbers. Then, they go to college, and make the college, again, HUGE dollars, like millions, yet cannot take a pair of free shoes or they are suspended and stripped of all their success, add to that, made into national sports pariahs...... are ya with me here so far..... I 'm building the basis for a climate that is manifested at the next level.

these kids, now young men, leave and hit the NBA. They are told from day one that they are a brand, a commodity. Sure winning makes their brand bigger, but immediate success and fame is predicated upon individual success. Hence, guys are out to "get theirs" and fast. what happens then..... well, they play 5-6 years and make a ton of cash, grow, mature, then think "legacy". Time for a championship. Aint getting that in a small market, and your agent wants no part of a small market as he cannot maximize returns there, and fucked if you aint on board for that, so you do what you can to get to another market, and if you hate where you are...well, see Vince Carter. Now this has been on going so there are established "good locations" and dreaded "bad locations". There are ups and downs in each, but for the most part its consistent over a longer time frame.

Stern tried to "fix" it by putting bandaids on a problem he himself masterminded. It is going to be WAY harder than that man. Way harder. All I know, is that from a completely basketball mindset, i HATE all that me first bullshit, but as a man, looking at another man, having not walked in his shoes..... I cant bring myself to blame the players. Not one bit.

Yes! The college system is a HUGE part of the problem for basketball players. The hundreds of millions of dollars generated by the NCAA is completely dependent on these players. Colleges are so concerned with attracting top talent and winning mostly for the purpose of generating $$$$$$. The amount of $$$ involved is just too high - it will corrupt any system at that level. Forget about player development when a school only has a guy for a year. What are they gonna do with a guy in a year? They need to win as much as possible as fast as possible. They're not nearly as concerned with player development as junior hockey clubs, the minor league system in baseball, or college football programs. It's a huge part of the problem and players definitely seem to feel used by the system. It's no wonder that when they make the pros and start signing contracts, so many basketball players do it with a "gotta get mine" mentality.

[KeonClark]

You think its hard for me to say black kids?

You think i brush 100% of the players in the NBA with the same brush?

You need to step back from your stance as its clearly confrontational. I'm certainly not a racist, and I don't think anyone with any real smarts would ever look at life at extremes. You do however have to recognize whats in front of you. You don't think there are underlying racial issues in pro sports? Read a bit.

Of course there's racial issues in sports. But what are the issues? You are frustrated at the me first attitude of players in the NBA? Well the only issue I take is when white basketball fans from Canada (which I'm assuming you are) talk about these issues like they can relate to a poor black kid growing up in Baltimore. Until you walk a mile(make that a lifetime) in someone else's shoes you simply have no idea why this NHL vs NBA comparison is so ridiculous.

Furthermore, NHL players typically grew up rich or well off in two parent households in nice suburbs of Ontario, BC, stuff like that. I wonder why life fundamentals might be more instilled in them vs a kid growing up in the slummiest part of Oakland who had to get himself to school cause moms was strung out again..

[magoon]

Furthermore, NHL players typically grew up rich or well off in two parent households in nice suburbs of Ontario, BC, stuff like that. I wonder why life fundamentals might be more instilled in them vs a kid growing up in the slummiest part of Oakland who had to get himself to school cause moms was strung out again..

Most black NBA players come from middle-class or upper-class black homes. There's more than a little inherent racism in this entire NBA/NHL comparison of yours.

[Superjudge]

ok bud, try reading my posts before you comment, like, wow, you'd save yourself a lot of typing.

I grew up in government housing, in a shitty part of Ontario with a single mom on welfare. she brought me to community "poor kids" hockey. Like lots of houseleaguers. I was good so I was promoted and was greatly helped out by the other families. I was lucky (ring any bells?) I also learned the game of basketball, alone, with friends in the snow outside, and played for my HS after I quit hockey because I was 15 and could no longer afford it. I stayed till after 7 trying to gt better, I didnt have a dad to teach me. From there I red shirted on a college team, at that point it was all on me, I was getting hurt a lot because of some shitty luck with my legs, and simply wasnt good enough.

So,

1. Don't assume.
2. I know exactly what is going on with these kids. i don't live in some over privileged nirvana kiddo, I have earned my stripes, and I applaud those kids for earning theirs.

As for the NHL vs NBA. Its changing, and fast. Money will be, and has always been the great force that dictates how things will be run. The NHL is not immune, its just way behind and still maintains some serious cultural differences which are related directly to team and to loyalty. It wont last there either.

[KeonClark]

ok bud, try reading my posts before you comment, like, wow, you'd save yourself a lot of typing.

I grew up in government housing, in a shitty part of Ontario with a single mom on welfare. she brought me to community "poor kids" hockey. Like lots of houseleaguers. I was good so I was promoted and was greatly helped out by the other families. I was lucky (ring any bells?) I also learned the game of basketball, alone, with friends in the snow outside, and played for my HS after I quit hockey because I was 15 and could no longer afford it. I stayed till after 7 trying to gt better, I didnt have a dad to teach me. From there I red shirted on a college team, at that point it was all on me, I was getting hurt a lot because of some shitty luck with my legs, and simply wasnt good enough.

So,

1. Don't assume.
2. I know exactly what is going on with these kids. i don't live in some over privileged nirvana kiddo, I have earned my stripes, and I applaud those kids for earning theirs.

As for the NHL vs NBA. Its changing, and fast. Money will be, and has always been the great force that dictates how things will be run. The NHL is not immune, its just way behind and still maintains some serious cultural differences which are related directly to team and to loyalty. It wont last there either.

Fair enough man. I've been told before I'm quick to get defensive, chip on my shoulder type shit ya know lol.

[Superjudge]

hey dude, I'm not lecturing you, I respect your idea's, hell I agree with ya, its just that I kinda already wrote some of that is all....and i too get all fired up.

Cheers bro.

ps. Come on, Keon...dude did that shit drunk and still killed it!!!

[golden]

Lebron is actually one of the guys out there that seems to get it nowadays.

Lebron gets it? Lebron is a fantastic, amazing, transcendent, once-in-a-generation player.

BUT.....

His 'decision' to collude with Bosh & Wade and massively stack the deck in his favor to win a championship, speaks volumes about his lack of competitive spirit as an athlete on the court, and diminishes my opinion of him as a competitor.

Yes, professional sports is a business and Lebron made a ‘smart’ business decision for Lebron Inc.

Yes, as a free agent he had every right to choose where he wanted to go.

Yes, Cleveland couldn't build around him (largely because he was holding a gun to their head every season, where they had to make desperate moves every year instead of building patiently.)

BUT….

I want to see the best go against the best, where the outcome is not largely self-evident. And the great ones want that too. Sure you have always had stacked teams in all sports in different eras from time-to-time, but that was because of luck or smart moves by the GMs, not pre-meditated avoidance of competition by the players themselves. I mean, I loved Lebron, Wade and Bosh when they were singlehandedly lifting the Cavs, Heat and Raps to greater heights, practically by themselves. I loved T-Mac when he was dropping 30pts a game, but still not making it out of the first round. Stockton and Malone, etc…, etc… They were all playing at HoF levels and playing their hearts out. That is greatness. That was honorable – even in defeat. But nowadays it’s all about ‘being smart’, sharing the heavy lifting, conserving your energy and building your brand through winning (even if it means selling your competitive soul).

The problem is that we live in an ‘ends justifies the means’ and ‘winning cures all’ world. The journey is just as important as the destination, IMO. I think Lebron got way too influenced by the criticism of not winning a championship to the point where he was willing to compromise his competitive integrity. Greatness in sports is not defined exclusively by championships, which is what Kobe, Magic, MJ and those old guys who were lucky enough to win would have you believe in put their legacies out of reach. If so, then Robert Horry is top 10 greatest of all time.

In my opinion, playing great and losing with honor is greater than winning by taking the easy way out. Even if Lebron didn’t choose Miami or Cleveland – then why not the Knicks? Bring a championship to NYC with Amare as your sidekick, and you’re immortal for life. And what was his justification for choosing Miami?


Lebron:

“I put myself in a position to have this process where I can hear teams' pitches and figure out what was the best possible chance for me to ultimately win and to ultimately be happy. “

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...the-transcript

That says it right there. Any player that is truly great (which Lebron is, and then some) believes that any team HE is on always has a chance to win and not necessarily the best chance to win. This type of let's all team-up to guarantee winning mentality is a type of new age thinking driven by the business side of sports. And unfortunately in this case, success breeds imitation, even to the point where high school prospects are now routinely teaming up later in college. This is sad.

So even though Lebron has been the MVP of a team that has won multiple championships, IMO, he doesn’t have the heart of champion. A champion wants to beat the best of the best – not team up with the best and beat down on the rest.

[Superjudge]

Well, I think we need to let people grow, and his comments over the last 18 months or so have been very promising. Thats what I'm going on.

[KeonClark]

Lebron gets it? Lebron is a fantastic, amazing, transcendent, once-in-a-generation player.

BUT.....

His 'decision' to collude with Bosh & Wade and massively stack the deck in his favor to win a championship, speaks volumes about his lack of competitive spirit as an athlete on the court, and diminishes my opinion of him as a competitor.

Yes, professional sports is a business and Lebron made a ‘smart’ business decision for Lebron Inc.

Yes, as a free agent he had every right to choose where he wanted to go.

Yes, Cleveland couldn't build around him (largely because he was holding a gun to their head every season, where they had to make desperate moves every year instead of building patiently.)

BUT….

I want to see the best go against the best, where the outcome is not largely self-evident. And the great ones want that too. Sure you have always had stacked teams in all sports in different eras from time-to-time, but that was because of luck or smart moves by the GMs, not pre-meditated avoidance of competition by the players themselves. I mean, I loved Lebron, Wade and Bosh when they were singlehandedly lifting the Cavs, Heat and Raps to greater heights, practically by themselves. I loved T-Mac when he was dropping 30pts a game, but still not making it out of the first round. Stockton and Malone, etc…, etc… They were all playing at HoF levels and playing their hearts out. That is greatness. That was honorable – even in defeat. But nowadays it’s all about ‘being smart’, sharing the heavy lifting, conserving your energy and building your brand through winning (even if it means selling your competitive soul).

The problem is that we live in an ‘ends justifies the means’ and ‘winning cures all’ world. The journey is just as important as the destination, IMO. I think Lebron got way too influenced by the criticism of not winning a championship to the point where he was willing to compromise his competitive integrity. Greatness in sports is not defined exclusively by championships, which is what Kobe, Magic, MJ and those old guys who were lucky enough to win would have you believe in put their legacies out of reach. If so, then Robert Horry is top 10 greatest of all time.

In my opinion, playing great and losing with honor is greater than winning by taking the easy way out. Even if Lebron didn’t choose Miami or Cleveland – then why not the Knicks? Bring a championship to NYC with Amare as your sidekick, and you’re immortal for life. And what was his justification for choosing Miami?


Lebron:

“I put myself in a position to have this process where I can hear teams' pitches and figure out what was the best possible chance for me to ultimately win and to ultimately be happy. “

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...the-transcript

That says it right there. Any player that is truly great (which Lebron is, and then some) believes that any team HE is on always has a chance to win and not necessarily the best chance to win. This type of let's all team-up to guarantee winning mentality is a type of new age thinking driven by the business side of sports. And unfortunately in this case, success breeds imitation, even to the point where high school prospects are now routinely teaming up later in college. This is sad.

So even though Lebron has been the MVP of a team that has won multiple championships, IMO, he doesn’t have the heart of champion. A champion wants to beat the best of the best – not team up with the best and beat down on the rest.

Why does everyone always say Lebron had to team up with the best? Everybody did! You know those old Bulls teams, Pippen was almost good as prime Wade and Rodman was better than Bosh. That's a big 3 right there. You think Bird wins those titles without McHale and Parrish? Find me one team that won the title with a supporting cast as bad as those Cleveland Cavalier teams.

[Nilanka]

Why does everyone always say Lebron had to team up with the best? Everybody did! You know those old Bulls teams, Pippen was almost good as prime Wade and Rodman was better than Bosh. That's a big 3 right there. You think Bird wins those titles without McHale and Parrish? Find me one team that won the title with a supporting cast as bad as those Cleveland Cavalier teams.

LeBron made the decision to join "the best"

Pippen was traded to the Bulls.