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For the anti-tankers....What else should we do? SI's mailbag on tanking

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  • #16
    KeonClark wrote: View Post
    This I agree with. How ironic that we spend all this time and effort getting rid of a much maligned chucker in Bargnani, but before we do that we get an even worse chucker with a worse contract.
    "Every team needs an elite chucker to win a championship, and the best way to get that elite chucker is via trade..."

    Oh, wait, that's not right!
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    • #17
      KeonClark wrote: View Post
      This I agree with. How ironic that we spend all this time and effort getting rid of a much maligned chucker in Bargnani, but before we do that we get an even worse chucker with a worse contract.
      I think for most, the issue with Bargnani was less about his chucking, and more about his refusal to rebound or play defense. As a power forward/centre, there's literally no way to make that work....as the Knicks are soon to find out (if they haven't figured it out already).

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      • #18
        Bendit wrote: View Post
        May I then suggest that a more palatable term us "tankers" should use to satisfy our "anti-tanker" brothers (and sisters) on these forums should be "Asset Accumulation". This of course would necessitate a slight change to our avatars, no? Something like:


        Finding treasure seems to much like luck. What we need is a way to express stock piling little bits of awesomeness that everyone wants....

        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • #19
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          That SI mailbag nailed it though:



          Is taking steps back for the long term benefit of the franchise tanking if the ceiling is maybe a playoff appearance?

          Anyone pointing the finger about tanking this season should take a look in the mirror and ask themselves am I essentially tanking the 2014-15, 2015-16, 2016-17 season by not acting now?
          I also keep going back to the 'sellers' come every trade deadline; nobody accuses them of tanking, even though they're clearly giving up this season in pursuit of better future seasons. What's the difference between making those strategic team-building moves at the halfway point of the season VS the quarter point VS Dec.15th VS whenever you determine your team just isn't good enough this season???

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          • #20
            I think a lot of tank vs anti-tank discussion has to do with the idea of blowing it up. We all agree that collecting assets and getting younger is good, but some of hate the idea of blowing up the roster. It's just that some people don't like the idea of being shitty on purpose (which would cost any GM his job). The good teams all have some continuity from year to year, which helps develops chemistry--something BC never allowed here. Every year, it seemed like at least half the guys were new.

            If Masai wants to deal RG this year, the reality is that he will either have to take back equally stinky contracts or send draft pics along with him to get good value. There is a lot to be said for patience. With all the chucking going on and JV's inexperience, we might tank unintentionally and doing nothing might just be the right course of action for now.

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            • #21
              I think some people are too focused on the negatives of Rudys game (which are plentiful). But let's be honest he still attracts crowds, he is clutch and his numbers (despite his efficiency) aren't awful. To use an analogy, Rudy is the buck toothed dude with 2 different coloured eyes and is a complete asshole that the hottest girl in your high school wants. Why? Because despite his many ugly qualities this babe thinks she can change him. There is always a market for a Rudy Gay and don't underestimate the value small market/desperate gms put on him. #tanknation #pitydates
              Sunny ways my friends, sunny ways
              Because its 2015

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              • #22
                Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
                I think some people are too focused on the negatives of Rudys game (which are plentiful). But let's be honest he still attracts crowds, he is clutch and his numbers (despite his efficiency) aren't awful. To use an analogy, Rudy is the buck toothed dude with 2 different coloured eyes and is a complete asshole that the hottest girl in your high school wants. Why? Because despite his many ugly qualities this babe thinks she can change him. There is always a market for a Rudy Gay and don't underestimate the value small market/desperate gms put on him. #tanknation #pitydates
                The issue with Rudy is not so much him, its his production vs his contract. I think he is a good enough all around player to help a team, but the opportunity cost of his contract is a burden on a team.

                Even if we say a team would really want him, his contract also makes it difficult to get a deal done under the CBA. Then on top of that there is risk associated with his player option. Some teams may want and expiring rental, but it can't be assured Rudy will be that. Some teams may want a longer term player, but it can't be assured Rudy will be that either.

                No matter how good one may think Rudy is, we have to accept that his contract alone drops his 'value' dramatically. The demand for a max deal that may or may not be expiring is generally not there in the NBA. The teams that would usually be comfortable taking that sort of risk either have their players or are capped out, and Bryan Colangelo has yet to get a new job.

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                • #23
                  Craiger wrote: View Post
                  The issue with Rudy is not so much him, its his production vs his contract. I think he is a good enough all around player to help a team, but the opportunity cost of his contract is a burden on a team.

                  Even if we say a team would really want him, his contract also makes it difficult to get a deal done under the CBA. Then on top of that there is risk associated with his player option. Some teams may want and expiring rental, but it can't be assured Rudy will be that. Some teams may want a longer term player, but it can't be assured Rudy will be that either.

                  No matter how good one may think Rudy is, we have to accept that his contract alone drops his 'value' dramatically. The demand for a max deal that may or may not be expiring is generally not there in the NBA. The teams that would usually be comfortable taking that sort of risk either have their players or are capped out, and Bryan Colangelo has yet to get a new job.
                  Yup. There's a reason that Memphis received so little interest in him last year (aside from a desperate BC), despite the fact that his price tag was reportedly very low. From a strictly financial perspective, it's tough to squeeze an $18 million dollar player onto your team on the fly. And when Rudy doesn't have a history of making your team that much better one way or the other (there's plenty of folks in both Memphis and Toronto who would argue that he actually hurts your team), the chances of a team going through all the trouble go down that much further.

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                  • #24
                    Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
                    I think some people are too focused on the negatives of Rudys game (which are plentiful). But let's be honest he still attracts crowds, he is clutch and his numbers (despite his efficiency) aren't awful. To use an analogy, Rudy is the buck toothed dude with 2 different coloured eyes and is a complete asshole that the hottest girl in your high school wants. Why? Because despite his many ugly qualities this babe thinks she can change him. There is always a market for a Rudy Gay and don't underestimate the value small market/desperate gms put on him. #tanknation #pitydates
                    ....you mean she wants him because despite everything you said, he has lots of money.

                    I think there's been some pretty significant words to him because of the way he played in the first half against Philly. I know he reverted back to old Rudy in the second half, but when you're a volume shooter that starts canning 3's you run with it. Hopefully (......HOPEFULLY) somebody showed him the footage of the first few plays where he drew in all the defenders and had literally EVERYBODY open around him, so open that Demar started knocking down jumpers. He has it in him to pass a fraction of the time.... that's all I ask
                    "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

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                    • #25
                      Craiger wrote: View Post
                      The issue with Rudy is not so much him, its his production vs his contract. I think he is a good enough all around player to help a team, but the opportunity cost of his contract is a burden on a team.

                      Even if we say a team would really want him, his contract also makes it difficult to get a deal done under the CBA. Then on top of that there is risk associated with his player option. Some teams may want and expiring rental, but it can't be assured Rudy will be that. Some teams may want a longer term player, but it can't be assured Rudy will be that either.

                      No matter how good one may think Rudy is, we have to accept that his contract alone drops his 'value' dramatically. The demand for a max deal that may or may not be expiring is generally not there in the NBA. The teams that would usually be comfortable taking that sort of risk either have their players or are capped out, and Bryan Colangelo has yet to get a new job.
                      With the selfish play he's shown so far this year I truly think that his only saving grace has been hitting almost every single shot he takes in crunch time. I wouldn't want him on my team if he were making as much as Demar.... and this is coming from a non-tanking Rudy fan. I love his skill set but he's so damn selfish that unless he passes, he's a detriment to our entire offense.
                      "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

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                      • #26
                        Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
                        I think some people are too focused on the negatives of Rudys game (which are plentiful). But let's be honest he still attracts crowds, he is clutch and his numbers (despite his efficiency) aren't awful. To use an analogy, Rudy is the buck toothed dude with 2 different coloured eyes and is a complete asshole that the hottest girl in your high school wants. Why? Because despite his many ugly qualities this babe thinks she can change him. There is always a market for a Rudy Gay and don't underestimate the value small market/desperate gms put on him. #tanknation #pitydates
                        The bold is true, but the problem with Rudy isn't that he's horrible - he shoots too much (his mentality/approach to the game isn't team-oriented enough on a really fundamental level) and he's paid way, way too much. You're not going anywhere with him as your highest paid player and a top 2 option on offense.

                        He'd be better off trying to emulate Josh Smith and Andre Igoudala than Kevin Durant. It would certainly help the Raptors a lot more.
                        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                        • #27
                          There are 2 reasons why I'm anti-tanking:

                          1. The idea that moving an asset at their lowest value, for anything is a good thing. It's not. Obviously the team needs quality young assets. But moving quality players for unwanted players (vets on expiring contracts like Camby -- thank god he never showed up) is a bad thing and leads to my second point.

                          2. What sort of environment do you want young assets to enter in to? Do you want T Ross, Val, a new draft pick, etc., playing alongside a miserable vet who doesn't want to play in Toronto? It's just as easy to be on a treadmill of being bad as there is to be on a treadmill of mediocrity. Create an environment of losing and players will get used to losing. SVG talks about how young players develop better on better teams...

                          Also, with the way the East is right now who do the Raps move to get worse? It's already been explained that moving Rudy probably makes the team better (at least offensively). The Raps will not get draft picks for a deal moving Lowry -- and with so many East teams stuck in the mud, there's no guarantee that even moving Lowry makes the team bad enough to guarantee a coveted top 5 draft pick (which is why they should need a draft pick to make the move).

                          The reality is that BC screwed the Raps. For the next couple seasons this is essentially the team. I trust Masai to find the future point guard, and a young starting SF. But it's going to be a marathon, not a sprint. The time to properly dive was when Bosh left, but BC was completely hard-headed and had fantasies of Andrea being a first option when, at best, he's a third.

                          To all the pro-tankers I'm sorry. I guess we all will have to get some chamomile tea, maybe light some incense sticks and chill. This going to take a few years to clean up in a way that leads to success.

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                          • #28
                            blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                            There are 2 reasons why I'm anti-tanking:

                            1. The idea that moving an asset at their lowest value, for anything is a good thing. It's not. Obviously the team needs quality young assets. But moving quality players for unwanted players (vets on expiring contracts like Camby -- thank god he never showed up) is a bad thing and leads to my second point.

                            2. What sort of environment do you want young assets to enter in to? Do you want T Ross, Val, a new draft pick, etc., playing alongside a miserable vet who doesn't want to play in Toronto? It's just as easy to be on a treadmill of being bad as there is to be on a treadmill of mediocrity. Create an environment of losing and players will get used to losing. SVG talks about how young players develop better on better teams...

                            Also, with the way the East is right now who do the Raps move to get worse? It's already been explained that moving Rudy probably makes the team better (at least offensively). The Raps will not get draft picks for a deal moving Lowry -- and with so many East teams stuck in the mud, there's no guarantee that even moving Lowry makes the team bad enough to guarantee a coveted top 5 draft pick (which is why they should need a draft pick to make the move).

                            The reality is that BC screwed the Raps. For the next couple seasons this is essentially the team. I trust Masai to find the future point guard, and a young starting SF. But it's going to be a marathon, not a sprint. The time to properly dive was when Bosh left, but BC was completely hard-headed and had fantasies of Andrea being a first option when, at best, he's a third.

                            To all the pro-tankers I'm sorry. I guess we all will have to get some chamomile tea, maybe light some incense sticks and chill. This going to take a few years to clean up in a way that leads to success.
                            1. Why assume Masai will make trades when his assests' value is low?

                            2. Why assume that we'll trade for disgruntled vets? Some old timers embrace the teaching role in the twilights of their careers (e.g. Magloire).

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                              There are 2 reasons why I'm anti-tanking:

                              1. The idea that moving an asset at their lowest value, for anything is a good thing. It's not. Obviously the team needs quality young assets. But moving quality players for unwanted players (vets on expiring contracts like Camby -- thank god he never showed up) is a bad thing and leads to my second point.

                              2. What sort of environment do you want young assets to enter in to? Do you want T Ross, Val, a new draft pick, etc., playing alongside a miserable vet who doesn't want to play in Toronto? It's just as easy to be on a treadmill of being bad as there is to be on a treadmill of mediocrity. Create an environment of losing and players will get used to losing. SVG talks about how young players develop better on better teams...

                              Also, with the way the East is right now who do the Raps move to get worse? It's already been explained that moving Rudy probably makes the team better (at least offensively). The Raps will not get draft picks for a deal moving Lowry -- and with so many East teams stuck in the mud, there's no guarantee that even moving Lowry makes the team bad enough to guarantee a coveted top 5 draft pick (which is why they should need a draft pick to make the move).

                              The reality is that BC screwed the Raps. For the next couple seasons this is essentially the team. I trust Masai to find the future point guard, and a young starting SF. But it's going to be a marathon, not a sprint. The time to properly dive was when Bosh left, but BC was completely hard-headed and had fantasies of Andrea being a first option when, at best, he's a third.

                              To all the pro-tankers I'm sorry. I guess we all will have to get some chamomile tea, maybe light some incense sticks and chill. This going to take a few years to clean up in a way that leads to success.
                              1. If our "best" players can't return much more than diminished players on expiring contracts, why the hell are we the ones trying to build something meaningful out of them?

                              2. I'd ask you what kind of environment you think the young assets are playing in now? JV + Ross get their playing time yanked around on a night to night basis while watching the Rudy/DD combo be allowed to play through LONG stretches of ill-advised shots, poor decision making and suspect D. When the young guys actually get on the court, they hardly see the ball. We have two chuckers shooting well over half the team's shots on a 5-7 team. Are we witnessing the "winning culture" that Casey has long promised being built? Somehow, I envisioned it much differently than this. At the very least, it's a poor situation for young talent to develop.

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                              • #30
                                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                1. Why assume Masai will make trades when his assests' value is low?

                                2. Why assume that we'll trade for disgruntled vets? Some old timers embrace the teaching role in the twilights of their careers (e.g. Magloire).
                                1. I'm actually assuming the opposite. That's why I highly doubt Masai tanks. He's not going to move players for the sake of losing.

                                2. The pro-tank side has been varied -- I'm speaking to a certain thread of thought that the Raps should just blindly get bad, moves like the rumored Detroit trade where the Raps got their expiring bad players for Rudy Gay for instance.

                                This is going to potentially be a special draft-- I acknowledge that-- but how many of those kids will be able to develop to their full potential on a poorly constructed team? Maybe three/four guys? So, how bad do the Raps need to be to guarantee getting those guys? Is it possible to even get that bad without poisoning the young guys on the roster they may want to keep? If not, it's better to win as many games as possible -- create an environment where players can develop, and scout properly.

                                Yes, that may mean years of mediocrity. There will be moments when people are going to hate Masai. Like I said, its going to be a marathon, not a sprint.

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