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4th seed in the East? Atlantic Division Leaders? Check and Check!

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  • #16
    TRex wrote: View Post
    To all the pro tankers here. Name me a team the last 20 years that 'tanked' and ended winning a championship.
    Conversely, name me a team that won a championship without elite talent.

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    • #17
      Nilanka wrote: View Post
      Conversely, name me a team that won a championship without a elite talent.
      Detroit Pistons 2004
      Mamba Mentality

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      • #18
        TRex wrote: View Post
        Detroit Pistons 2004
        Ooh kill em T Rex!


        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
        @Chr1st1anL

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        • #19
          TRex wrote: View Post
          Detroit Pistons 2004
          I'd argue that Billups and both Wallaces were "elite" in their primes.

          Regardless, should our aim be to replicate an anomaly like the Pistons?

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          • #20
            Besides, why look to the Pistons when evidence of high lotto picks leading to Championships is FAR more prevalent?

            Edit: Billups was a 3rd overall pick, and 'Sheed was a 5th overall pick. So even the 2004 Pistons needed the lottery (in a round about way) to win their title.
            Last edited by Nilanka; Thu Nov 21, 2013, 03:29 PM.

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            • #21
              Nilanka wrote: View Post
              Besides, why look to the Pistons when evidence of high lotto picks leading to Championships is FAR more prevalent?
              Example?

              I'm not talking about 'high lotto' picks like a Durant or Rose. I'm talking about teams that 'intentionally' tanked. Seattle and Chicago were just bad teams back in 07 and 08.

              For example, Cleveland and Denver tanked mightily to get the 1st overall pick in 2003. Where did that lead them? they got a lot of exposure when they got LeBron and Melo. But they didn't win a championship.

              Btw, i'm not saying Raptors should build their team like the Pistons of 04. All i'm saying is, tanking NEVER works.
              Mamba Mentality

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              • #22
                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                I'd argue that Billups and both Wallaces were "elite" in their primes.

                Regardless, should our aim be to replicate an anomaly like the Pistons?
                Just saying it's pushing it to call those guys elite in 03-04.

                17-6-4 on 55% TS isn't elite. It's very very good, but not elite.

                Sheed shot 49.5% TS that year btw. He was elite on the defensive end though.

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                • #23
                  TRex wrote: View Post
                  To all the pro tankers here. Name me a team the last 20 years that 'tanked' and ended winning a championship.
                  Well, first, your goal posts are ludicrous. Winning a title is virtually impossible as only one team can do that each year and, even for the best teams, requires a healthy degree of good luck and good timing.

                  Second, every NBA champion since 1980 has a generational superstar talent with the exception of the 2004 Pistons. The common denominator isn't how champions were built, it's that they all had at least one singular great player.

                  Having said that, I'll give you best example of a recent tank that worked: Celtics. Traded the picks and young guys they got from tanking for Garnett and Allen.

                  An example also overlooked is the Heat. Riley had Wade but did nothing to improve the team for 2 solid years (much to Wade's dismay at the time) and, in fact, made moves like the O'Neal trade that made the team worse. Why? To clear cap space to sign Lebron and Bosh. Was it tanking? Well, they weren't trying to win....

                  Also, as above, your question conveniently ignores both the Thunder and the Cavs that went to NBA Finals after tanking outright for specific players.

                  One more note: Colangelo tried the anti-tank route for years here in Toronto. How'd that work? I don't know that tanking will work for Toronto - there are no guarantees it will - but I can absolutely, positively-frickin guarantee you that the status quo in Raptorland is going nowhere fast.

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                  • #24
                    TRex wrote: View Post
                    Example?

                    I'm not talking about 'high lotto' picks like a Durant or Rose. I'm talking about teams that 'intentionally' tanked. Seattle and Chicago were just bad teams back in 07 and 08.

                    For example, Cleveland and Denver tanked mightily to get the 1st overall pick in 2003. Where did that lead them? they got a lot of exposure when they got LeBron and Melo. But they didn't win a championship.

                    Btw, i'm not saying Raptors should build their team like the Pistons of 04. All i'm saying is, tanking NEVER works.
                    Why does the method of obtaining the high pick matter (whether it's naturally sucking or tanking)? A high lotto pick is a high lotto pick.

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                    • #25
                      Nosike wrote: View Post
                      Just saying it's pushing it to call those guys elite in 03-04.

                      17-6-4 on 55% TS isn't elite. It's very very good, but not elite.

                      Sheed shot 49.5% TS that year btw. He was elite on the defensive end though.
                      Semantics. Wallace, Wallace and Billups were exponentially more talented than any 3 players on the current Raptors.

                      But again, how do the Raptors expect to win without acquiring stud players?

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                      • #26
                        TRex wrote: View Post
                        All i'm saying is, tanking NEVER works.
                        Can we shelve the tanking debate for awhile (forever)?

                        Tanking both works, and doesn't.
                        It is a strategy, a gamble, with plenty of good examples for both sides.

                        Nobody knows what Wiggens is, and all things have exceptions.
                        LeBron and Melo's tenures could have been more fruitful if better decisions were made after the draft.
                        Or not.

                        It doesn't matter.

                        It's not a debate, it's an opinion.
                        It's a matter of perspective.

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                        • #27
                          TRex wrote: View Post
                          To all the pro tankers here. Name me a team the last 20 years that 'tanked' and ended winning a championship.
                          Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! There are so many threads, comments, and main page posts dealing with this already, and this exact point of debate has been discussed ad nauseam. For a point-by-point recap, please e-mail Tim W.
                          "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                          • #28
                            slaw wrote: View Post
                            One more note: Colangelo tried the anti-tank route for years here in Toronto. How'd that work? I don't know that tanking will work for Toronto - there are no guarantees it will - but I can absolutely, positively-frickin guarantee you that the status quo in Raptorland is going nowhere fast.
                            And this is what every for/against tanking debate boils down to. Why stick with the current gameplan and expect different results?

                            There's no such thing as karma. There isn't a supernatural force that balances the moral landscape, waiting to screw the Raptors for "losing on purpose".

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                            • #29
                              S.R. wrote: View Post
                              Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! There are so many threads, comments, and main page posts dealing with this already, and this exact point of debate has been discussed ad nauseam. For a point-by-point recap, please e-mail Tim W.
                              Heartily agree.
                              What a dreadfully boring topic.

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                              • #30
                                What it comes down to with you pro tankers is you have no faith in Uriji. You think there's only one way to win, and that's to basically give up and hope and pray we get a good pick? Well obviously Masai Uriji believes there's more than one way to turn a team around. And while many question it by pointing out that "you can't think of anything" that will turn it around, ownership doesn't pay you to think. They do pay Uriji to think, $3 million annually in fact.
                                9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum

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