4th seed in the East? Atlantic Division Leaders? Check and Check!

[peanutwoozle]

I can't figure you out.

Most people here are easy to figure out where they stand on things.

Do you want the Raptors to continue on like they have been?
Do you think this team has any shot to do anything?

This team is a lottery team: the only difference is do they pick at the end of it or the beginning. History says the beginning gives you a better opportunity to find talent.


As to the Boston point: exactly. Boston had assets. That is what the majority of 'tankers' around here want. You need assets to make trades. Cap space is also an asset. The Raptors are capped out with Gay and he is an asset that can leave for nothing (like Lowry) - so trade them while you can.


I'm confused where the debate is here.

lol @ Gay being an asset. and Lowry is a rental and will fetch us no more than a useless 2nd rd pick at most (see Barbosa)

[mcHAPPY]

lol @ Gay being an asset. and Lowry is a rental and will fetch us no more than a useless 2nd rd pick at most (see Barbosa)

Still can't figure you out.

Where is the contribution to discussion here?

Please let us humble Republic readers know where you stand or what you expect.

I'm really confused by your posts and the only conclusion I'm coming to is you are not only a troll but a Grand Master Troll.

[S.R.]

Still can't figure you out.

Where is the contribution to discussion here?

Please let us humble Republic readers know where you stand or what you expect.

I'm really confused by your posts and the only conclusion I'm coming to is you are not only a troll but a Grand Master Troll.

I'm gonna go with the fact that he's signed up as "peanutwoozle" and ignore everything he writes. Pretty sure it's Rob Ford.

[Fully]

Actually, it does matter, Detroit didn't draft their own players like you guys are proposing, Never once did they tank. They traded for and signed all of their core pieces (minus Tayshaun, who was a 23rd pick). I respect that, I do not respect going out there to lose, let the players get cranky which will bring their value down, and hoping that a superstar magically falls to their lap.

at your bolded point - Really? Sacramento, Minnesota, Portland, etc... come to mind.

Wanna know what Boston used to acquire the other 2 (and Paul Pierce was a 10th pick) members of the big 3 and the rest of their core, let's see, Ray Allen was traded for Wally Szczerbiak (at the time he was injury prone), Delonte West (24th pick), and the 5th pick (Jeff Green) - only 1 high pick, Kevin Garnett was traded for Sebastian Telfair (a first round bust who never lived up to his potential), Theo Ratliff (expiring bum), Ryan Gomes (50th pick), Gerald Green (18th pick), Al Jefferson (15th pick), and 2 first round picks that were late. Rondo was a 21st pick, and Perkins was a 27th pick.

Trading and signing the right guys in free agency will be a big part of the rebuild too. But before that can happen, the team needs to actually clear up some cap space and accumulate assets that other teams will want, no? There needs to be a tear down period before Ujiri is able to start building from the ground floor. He's operating from a deficit right now - no cap room and very little in expendable assets (especially if you think DD/JV/Ross are off limits).

You make it seem like Ujiri turning the Raptors unwanted pieces into the core of a contending team via trade is as simple as him saying that it's time to do so. The market for Rudy is on life support. Lowry should get more interest but isn't a slam dunk get for any team, especially as an expiring. The return on these guys won't be able to take the existing roster to the promised land. It sounds like more of the 're-arranging ugly furniture in your living room' model that we've been subjected to for the better part of the last decade.

[Nilanka]

lol @ Gay being an asset. and Lowry is a rental and will fetch us no more than a useless 2nd rd pick at most (see Barbosa)

Regarding Lowry, here are your 2 options:

1. Keep Lowry until the end of the year, miss the playoffs, and watch him walk.

2. Trade Lowry before the deadline, miss the playoffs, and get (in your opinion) a 2nd round pick.

How do you not see the benefit of #2?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Regarding Lowry, here are your 2 options:

1. Keep Lowry until the end of the year, miss the playoffs, and watch him walk.

2. Trade Lowry before the deadline, miss the playoffs, and get (in your opinion) a 2nd round pick.

How do you not see the benefit of #2?

Don't forget that #2 has the added benefit of improving the draft positioning of the Raptors' own 1st round pick in the loaded 2014 draft. Minor detail...

[peanutwoozle]

Regarding Lowry, here are your 2 options:

1. Keep Lowry until the end of the year, miss the playoffs, and watch him walk.

2. Trade Lowry before the deadline, miss the playoffs, and get (in your opinion) a 2nd round pick.

How do you not see the benefit of #2?

because 2nd round picks are useless for the most part.

I see no difference between the two options

[Joey]

because 2nd round picks are useless for the most part.

I see no difference between the two options

Only to the Raptors though. Most other teams have managed some sort of Second Round Gem at some point in time.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

because 2nd round picks are useless for the most part.

I see no difference between the two options

First, an additional 2nd round pick is better than nothing.

Second, trading Lowry at the deadline would help improve Toronto's own lottery odds, since they'd be far worse without him starting at PG.

Third, if Lowry's being traded to a team securely in the playoffs, I could see Toronto squeezing a late 1st round pick out of them. Toronto could even include one of those useless 2nd round picks in the deal to sweeten the offer. Suddenly the return has much more value, either to draft a player or as an additional trade asset.

[Nilanka]

because 2nd round picks are useless for the most part.

I see no difference between the two options

Well then you're choosing to cover your eyes, while ignoring reality. I can't help you.

[peanutwoozle]

Well then you're choosing to cover your eyes, while ignoring reality. I can't help you.

What do you expect to get with a 2nd round pick then?

[Axel]

CalRapsFans points out Championship teams...see bold

1st bold - Congratulations, you picked out the one and only NBA championship team in at least the last 25 years (likely much longer) that wasn't built around a key player drafted by the franchise. History has proven that building through the draft is the most effective method of building a successful franchise. How/why you wind up getting a high draft pick is of no concern in the long run.

You counter with Sacramento, Minnesota and Portland? Not exactly the same thing. Talking about Championship teams and how they acquired their stars is a very different discussion than mismanagement of unsuccessful teams.

at your bolded point - Really? Sacramento, Minnesota, Portland, etc... come to mind.

Wanna know what Boston used to acquire the other 2 (and Paul Pierce was a 10th pick) members of the big 3 and the rest of their core, let's see, Ray Allen was traded for Wally Szczerbiak (at the time he was injury prone), Delonte West (24th pick), and the 5th pick (Jeff Green) - only 1 high pick, Kevin Garnett was traded for Sebastian Telfair (a first round bust who never lived up to his potential), Theo Ratliff (expiring bum), Ryan Gomes (50th pick), Gerald Green (18th pick), Al Jefferson (15th pick), and 2 first round picks that were late. Rondo was a 21st pick, and Perkins was a 27th pick.

Boston is a great example of building through the draft. They acquired multiple picks in multiple years and used those picks (either before or after the draft) to get better players. The were able to make trades because they acquired multiple picks and could trade them away and still use other picks to select good (Perkins at 27) or great (Rondo at 21) players to fill out their roster. If you are against this method, then you leave only free agency, so you might as well cheer for either Miami, Lakers or the Knicks if that is your only acceptable methodology.

[mcHAPPY]

Only to the Raptors though. Most other teams have managed some sort of Second Round Gem at some point in time.

Masai was scouting for jazz when they selected millsap and miles in 2006

[Nilanka]

What do you expect to get with a 2nd round pick then?

It's not necessarily about the pick itself. It's about asset accumulation. That pick could theoretically be included in a larger trade package in the future. Isn't that a better scenario than Lowry playing out his contract and having nothing to show for it?

Or we could simply keep the pick, and roll the dice (Monta Ellis, Gilbert Arenas, Manu Ginobili....just a few 2nd round players that come to mind). Again, a better option than Lowry leaving.

[Axel]

What do you expect to get with a 2nd round pick then?

Depends on the year, but every year has usuable rotation players available in the 2nd round.

Last year (still early, but guys form the 2nd round)
Allen Crabbe - SG with 3PT range
Glen Rice Jr
Tony Mitchell
Nate Wolters
Jeff Withey

2012
Jeffrey Taylor - rugged SF defender
Draymond Green - versatile 3/4
Quincy Acy

2011
Kyle Singler
Chandler Parsons
Lavoy Allen
Isaiah Thomas (who currently leads the NBA in 4th quarter scoring)

2010
Landry Fields
Lance Stephenson
(Undrafted) Jeremy Lin

2009
Dante Cunningham
DeJaun Blair
Patrick Beverley (starting PG for Houston)
Marcus Thornton
Chase Budinger
Danny Green

2008
Nikola Pekovic
Mario Chalmers
DeAndre Jordan
Omer Asik
Goran Dragic (was the Raps pick that year - but sadly we had traded it away)

Do I need to go on?