4th seed in the East? Atlantic Division Leaders? Check and Check!

[magoon]

So Milwaukee lost again (to Philly in OT). They are 2-9 and second worst in the league (after Utah). Are they still trying or have they gone into the tank?

If they're tanking nobody told their owner, who has always forbidden it. Milwaukee is having major injury issues right now: Larry Sanders is out indefinitely, Carlos Delfino is down for the season, Caron Butler will be out for a few weeks, Brandon Knight is on and off, etc.

[mcHAPPY]

Dont get me wrong I appreciate critique, and your post has many points that have changed the way I see things. I thought that Colengalo comment was backhanded and in spite, I understand now that it wasnt the intention.



You are 100% right, and its my fault for not reading further into the contracts. You have to understand that I was making a point rather than outlining a specific plan. Remember, in my first comment I talk about possibilities. The lack of Cap space is a huge issue because it blocks us from taking advantage of opportunities that can open up, also known as being robust. So in light of the information you have provided me, I suggest trading Demar/Rudy and Lowry for contracts that would expire by 2016 and picks.

But I dont think becoming bad for high draft picks is the answer, I think we still need to compete between then and now and just maintain flexibility until a golden opportunity approaches. If we are stuck tanking it will be hard (in my opinion) to exploit those opportunities.




Bold: The idea is not to plan specifically because the history of the NBA is always full of surprises and everything changes on a trade. The idea is to be robust to the random opportunities that do arise in the NBA, and for many reasons, being competitive allows you to be more robust. Where as losing has its own mechanisms to attract more losing (i explained some in my other posts). Blowing it up is another argument, but getting bad in order to get good is in my opinion not a proven strategy, and there are other ways to get good. Luck is opportunity meats preparation. The Raptors can only control how prepared they are to meet opportunities and the rest is recognizing when they appear.

As for the talent, remember we are getting something back for Rudy, Lowry, Demar, and that could be young talent, picks, or players we might want to keep. I cant see the future so its hard to plan specifically.

I was asked why anti-tankers arent giving their 'plans' and thats actually the first thing i said in my first post as a reply to that, and so every 'plan' i come up with can be scrapped in a second if you are in a flexible position to keep all your doors open. Like Ive said before, I believe tanking closes some of those doors.

I'm not sure how you trade Lowry, Gay, and DD from this team and not become significantly worse - especially Lowry.

As a pro-tanker I've been adamant it is not just about the Raptors pick.
It is also not about just building through the draft.

It is all about asset accumulation. I had this in another thread. This is my blue print:

2013-15:

STEP 1) The OKC Model (aka TANKING 101):
Hit up the 2014 and 2015 drafts at the top end hoping to luck out with franchise talent. 2014 appears to have a number of franchise changers that may or may not pan out.

STEP 2) The HOUSTON Model (aka HOARDING):
Stock your roster with prospects and extra draft picks while maintaining financial flexibility.

STEP 3) The INDIANA Model (aka PATIENCE 101):
Draft wisely and develop from within (Ross, JV, Acy, future picks). Maintain financial flexibility. Cap space, exceptions, and traded draft picks are not to be used until the core is established.


2015-17:

STEP 4a) The BOSTON Model (aka CASH IN YOUR CHIPS):
Use cap space, your prospects, future picks to bring in established star talent via trade. Key here is already having 2 All-NBA talents on the roster.

STEP 4b) The MIAMI Model (aka PLAYERS UNITE 'CAUSE "WE CAN'T DO IT ON OUR OWN"):
Have a tonne of cap space. Hope Toronto has added some pizzazz (hat tip: ebrian). Hope Drake is still relevant. Hope there is one All-NBA talent who is friends with and respected by other All-NBA talent who is free agent (Love in '15? Durant in '16?)

**CRAZY REALIZATION OF THE DAY TIME: Raptors will have enough cap space in 2015 to sign a max free agent AND in 2016 if the roster included JV's cap hold, 2 top 5 picks from '14 and '15 draft, '15 max free agent signing then in 2016 there would be enough cap space to sign another max free agent. Just throwing it out there**


2017-32:

STEP 5) The SPURS Model (aka PERENNIAL CONTENDER):
With your franchise talent in place led by great coaching, management tweaks the roster each year to compliment the All-NBA talent and be a contender to win year in and year out.

STEP 6) The BROOKLYN Model (aka DRUNKEN SAILOR ON WEEKEND PASS):
The Raptors have the 4th largest NBA market with multi billion dollar corporation ownership. The luxury tax becomes a joke as the Raptors amass a 5 man core of 5 max contracts. (lol)


Anyone arguing for just one model is doomed for failure. Honestly I just had a little bit of fun with the above but even when looking at each 'model' all have elements of others. Relying just on free agency is doomed for failure. Relying on making a huge trade is doomed for failure. Relying on just the draft is doomed for failure. As many others have said it takes a lot of luck to have everything work out and is a combination of finding value contracts, drafting talent in all areas of the draft, obtaining elite talent, and finding the free agents to put you over the top.

[enlightenment]

You make good points and I applaud you on the breakdown for your plan.

It could be just an exhaustion for following a team that plays meaningless games. I feel its toxic, and I feel we should avoid them. But with the way the NBA is right now, Im not sure that gradual growth and small spurts of success leading into larger success is a given. Which sucks for fans who wish to watch organic growth lead to championships...

[iblastoff]

Oh great, dont read my comment and instead be dismissive and spiteful..

Here let me copy and paste a portion of my comment that you are referring to,

like i said, tons of wishful thinking and misplaced optimism in place of logic.

[enlightenment]

like i said, tons of wishful thinking and misplaced optimism in place of logic.

I want to point out something. Please go look at the conversation Matt52 and I have just had. That is the proper way to engage an argument and convince someone to change their perspectives on certain points.

General sweeping dismissals add nothing to the conversation and makes you out to be an antagonistic asshole.

[S.R.]

You make good points and I applaud you on the breakdown for your plan.

It could be just an exhaustion for following a team that plays meaningless games. I feel its toxic, and I feel we should avoid them. But with the way the NBA is right now, Im not sure that gradual growth and small spurts of success leading into larger success is a given. Which sucks for fans who wish to watch organic growth lead to championships...

What makes organic growth hard is that middling NBA players are way overpaid and teams hit the salary cap just trying to not bleed talent. Teams have to overpay middling guys and who still have some growth potential and lower-tier all-stars just to keep them, without accumulating nearly enough talent to compete for a championship.

Also, the NBA is such a superstar-drive league, and there just aren't 30 "I can lead a team to the title"-level superstars. You've either got one of those guys or you don't, most of the teams don't, and it's damn hard to get one.

[LBF]

I want to point out something. Please go look at the conversation Matt52 and I have just had. That is the proper way to engage an argument and convince someone to change their perspectives on certain points.

General sweeping dismissals add nothing to the conversation and makes you out to be an antagonistic asshole.

Matt52 is probably RR's most hardcore member. You can't expect everyone to be like him.

[Masai Ujiri]

I thought Washington would be better than this

Same, I had them about on the same level as the Hawks. Really surprising how poorly they're playing.

[Craiger]

If you want to know what Ujiri is going to do, look at history. He collects assets, young cheap assets he drafts well and he builds around his coach. The only difference we will see is Ujiri's ability to spend money on guys to keep them around. Unlike in Denver our ownership is not shy to spend money. I am pro tank because I'm sick of this treadmill but at the same time I trust Masai to make the right decisions and I trust the new(ish) ownership to support him and spend when he tells them it's worth it.

Ujiri has 2 years of history to work with. During those two years he took over an already good team, with some very valuable players and assets (particularily Melo).

Masai made some good decisions I'm not questioning that. I think (hope) Masai will be a good GM here, I'm not questioning that either.

But there is very little history to look at with Masai, and the circumstances from which he took over in Denver are vastly different than here in Toronto. I don't think we can just look at what he did in Denver and extrapolate it to what he will or even can or necessarily should do here.

Just further to this idea of 'can he' even duplicate something similar to Denver - BC attempted that here in Toronto and failed miserably. He couldn't simply buy an allstar calibre player like he could in Phoenix (ie. Nash), a few times having his better players leave (Marion and Bosh). Yet he kept trying to make that attempt to build through FA/trades instead of the draft

Market - situation - current assets, all effect how one did do something and how well one can replicate that something. Bill Gates grew one of the largest and most well known corporation in the world in Microsoft. Does that mean he could he do the same with a restaurant chain in Denmark?

[iblastoff]

I want to point out something. Please go look at the conversation Matt52 and I have just had. That is the proper way to engage an argument and convince someone to change their perspectives on certain points.

General sweeping dismissals add nothing to the conversation and makes you out to be an antagonistic asshole.

i have no interest in trying to change your perspective. just wanted to point out that despite all you've written, you basically just made an extremely vague argument with no meat and a lot of fluff, which is why i think you got the "is this colangelo?" thrown at you. i can't engage in an argument when theres no real argument to begin with.

basically you want to remain competitive to gain 'respect' AND somehow land massive FA's along with all our prospects blossoming into great players AND we let go of any cumbersome contracts and replace them with more value AND we somehow still end up being extremely flexible in pretty much every way. and your plan for that? "oh the league is unpredictable so i can't set out a plan'.

[Ambidextrious]

raps are looking better day by day. nobody said this team is perfect. The one thing they've shown is that they have a lot of room for improvement. so to all you tankers remember, slow progress is still progress.

[Puffer]

...slow progress is still progress.

there's the problem. slow progress is SLOW progress. Maybe us tankers want FAST progress.

[mcHAPPY]

raps are looking better day by day. nobody said this team is perfect. The one thing they've shown is that they have a lot of room for improvement. so to all you tankers remember, slow progress is still progress.

It will be interesting to see what happens when they play the HEAT, Pacers, just about any team in the west, and if the nets and Knicks get themselves together.

I'm not sure there is a lot of room for improvement. They are still lacking elite talent. They are still facing the possibility Gay and Lowry walk as UFAs this summer. The boo birds on Gay surely won't help. They still have only beat bad teams thus far and, other than Utah, none convincingly.

[mcHAPPY]

there's the problem. slow progress is SLOW progress. Maybe us tankers want FAST progress.

Or sustainable progress

[The Great One]

raps are looking better day by day. nobody said this team is perfect. The one thing they've shown is that they have a lot of room for improvement. so to all you tankers remember, slow progress is still progress.

This x1000!

Looking at teh Eastern Conference right now. If the Raps can continue to improve, move the ball, play team basketball like the way they played the last 2 games. Finishing 4-5 in the East is not out of the question.

Winning is NEVER a bad thing people.