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How to Rebuild an NBA Franchise
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CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View PostI can't speak for others, but I'm not arguing the importance of the natural leadership abilities or his ability to help permeate the Spurs' desired culture/identity through to his teammates. I think you're just underestimating the impact of talent. You could easily say that all things being equal with regards to personality/character, he wouldn't command the respect of his teammates without having also earned it at least partly through his contribution on the court. Talent and character go hand-in-hand in order to become a leader among men.
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Craig wrote: View PostYes, but he isn't the leader in San antonio. The coach is.
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Craig wrote: View PostYes, but he isn't the leader in San antonio. The coach is.
In addition to being named the league’s best power forward — despite having moved to center, a position where he finished third, several seasons ago — Duncan was honored as the league’s best leader with 30 percent of the vote to edge long-time rival Kevin Garnett.While Popovich and his assistants huddled on the court during the stoppage, Parker and Tim Duncan coached up their teammates on what to do in the ensuing defensive possession."He is getting older, just like you are, and all of us, but Tim Duncan is still the backbone of the program," said Spurs Coach Gregg Popovich. "He's the guy we build around. He sets the tone for us.Tony [Parker] andManu [Ginobili] know that full well."“It’s fun coaching him,” Popovich said. “I’ve got my hands hanging on his coattail … and he just keeps dragging me around wherever I’m at. Every time I walk around the house once a month, I tell my wife, ‘Say thank you, Tim.’ I’m serious.”
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Matt52 wrote: View PostBecause teams that trade marquee players typically want the following:
1) cap relief
2) prospects on rookie deals
3) draft picks
Raps can't offer guaranteed cap relief outside Lowry; prospects with high ceilings except JV (but even Brooklyn kept Lopez); but could do draft picks.Matt52 wrote: View PostAlso that method is not sustAinable if trading for older vets. Brooklyn has no picks (without other team having rigt to swap) and no cap space for a long time.
Could I throw out a 3rd option, just for conversation sake? Look at the Brooklyn Nets model. Go heavy into the luxury to sign a bunch of all-stars, quality FA's etc, and build a team to win now.
With a 2014 free agent class that includes Melo, Munroe, Bledsoe and (why not?) Dirk, why not go for it? Heck, it's not like Mayor Ford hasn't put Tdot on the map.
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Nosike wrote: View PostBut I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.
See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
Regardless, I think Matt52 was pointing out thats not what Brooklyn did. It was all trades.Last edited by Craiger; Wed Nov 27, 2013, 12:42 PM.
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Just to add. Idk how Ujiri would do it, but if he could ship out most of our long-term deals (Gay, Fields, Lowry, Novak etc) we could tank and still be set up nicely for the draft. With only the following contracts on the books:
DeMar: 9.5M
Amir: 7M
Val: 3.7M
Hansbrough:3.3M
Ross: 2.8M
2014 1st Round Pick (Exum?):3M
Total: 29.3M
Leaves us over 30M to spend in free agency, which means we could actually sign Gordon Hayward and Monroe potentially.
Exum/DD/Hayward/Monroe/Val looks dope to me.
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Nosike wrote: View PostBut I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.
See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
The FA plan is something you can talk about if you 'tank' and by tank I mean clear contracts for cap space.
If your plan is to build a team through free agency while keeping this core, you are limited to the MLE/mini-MLE or minimum contracts. If you use the full MLE you are hardcapped at $4M above the salary cap.
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Nosike wrote: View PostJust to add. Idk how Ujiri would do it, but if he could ship out most of our long-term deals (Gay, Fields, Lowry, Novak etc) we could tank and still be set up nicely for the draft. With only the following contracts on the books:
DeMar: 9.5M
Amir: 7M
Val: 3.7M
Hansbrough:3.3M
Ross: 2.8M
2014 1st Round Pick (Exum?):3M
Total: 29.3M
Leaves us over 30M to spend in free agency, which means we could actually sign Gordon Hayward and Monroe potentially.
Exum/DD/Hayward/Monroe/Val looks dope to me.
Free agency is tough enough trying to get a player to agree to come to your team for a set amount but throw in another team having the ability to match any offer sheet and suddenly it is a serious obstacle to overcome in planning.
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Matt52 wrote: View PostDeron Williams was a trade. Lopez was a draft pick back to the awful Nets days.
The FA plan is something you can talk about if you 'tank' and by tank I mean clear contracts for cap space.
If your plan is to build a team through free agency while keeping this core, you are limited to the MLE/mini-MLE or minimum contracts. If you use the full MLE you are hardcapped at $4M above the salary cap.
The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
Just to add. Idk how Ujiri would do it, but if he could ship out most of our long-term deals (Gay, Fields, Lowry, Novak etc) we could tank and still be set up nicely for the draft. With only the following contracts on the books:
DeMar: 9.5M
Amir: 7M
Val: 3.7M
Hansbrough:3.3M
Ross: 2.8M
2014 1st Round Pick (Exum?):3M
Total: 29.3M
Leaves us over 30M to spend in free agency, which means we could actually sign Gordon Hayward and Monroe potentially.
Exum/DD/Hayward/Monroe/Val looks dope to me.
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Nosike wrote: View PostI think you're misunderstanding me. Look at what I said:
And then look at my earlier post about the "plan":
To me a free agent plan could directly follow a tank this year.
Pele wrote: View PostNice thread. I like how you're breaking down the "Tank vs Anti-tank" and looking at it more thoughtfully and thoroughly.
Could I throw out a 3rd option, just for conversation sake? Look at the Brooklyn Nets model. Go heavy into the luxury to sign a bunch of all-stars, quality FA's etc, and build a team to win now.
With a 2014 free agent class that includes Melo, Munroe, Bledsoe and (why not?) Dirk, why not go for it? Heck, it's not like Mayor Ford hasn't put Tdot on the map.
It would be expensive, require some thrifty trading for good back-ups (something we currently lack)
Try to keep Amir, Hansborough, Ross, Val.....and deal the rest.
Any thoughts as to this approach? (btw, I do believe that the Nets will turn it around as the year progresses, bodies get healthy and the playoffs come onto the radar)
My reply highlighting how Brooklyn was built and the CBA:
Matt52 wrote: View PostThere is the CBA to work around though.
They have not signed any free agents to anything but an exception.
It was all trades and they resignings with Bird Rights.
This is what you've done when you've acquired your core or trade assets to add to your established core.
What are the Raptors going to get in return for their spare parts right now?
Nosike wrote: View PostQuestion. Isn't the whole premise of your tanking philosophy that we can and should ship out guys like Gay and Lowry for cap relief and picks.
Why are you suggesting that wouldn't be a possibility if we wanted to go after marquee free-agents instead of tanking?
Tbh I don't see anything wrong with either strategy. If we were actually able to ship out Lowry and Gay for cap relief AND tank, I'd have no qualms with drafting a Smart or Exum and then going after Gordon Hayward (who would be an excellent pairing with DD on the wing btw) in free agency.
Your post talking about going after players in free agency rather than trading:
Nosike wrote: View PostBut I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.
See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
Nosike wrote: View PostBut I don't think he was talking about trading for marquee players. I think he was talking about going after them in free agency.
See the bold, although I believe he made a mistake by saying Brooklyn Nets model because they actually traded for most of their guys (except DWill(FA) and Lopez(draft)). The FA plan is actually something we could do even if we tanked potentially.
Personally I'd rather go another year in the draft ('15) since they already have 2 '16 picks and focus on free agency in 2015 and 2016.
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Craiger wrote: View PostGiven that marquee NBA FAs have never come to Toronto, and almost never in other weak markets in general, I'm not sure it should be seen as a feasible plan. ie. "Why not go for it?" Because its a low odds proposition
Regardless, I think Matt52 was pointing out thats not what Brooklyn did. It was all trades.
However, they did sign FA Alan Anderson....so I'm not completely out to lunch. Lol.
I guess I was curious as to going in the direction of signing veteran FA's and winning now, rather than pinning our hopes to the draft and looking 5 years down the road.
Either way, with our roster...I guess Masai has his work cut out for him.
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Also,
There's a lot of teams in tank mode, it seems. (Boston, Utah, Sac) There's also a lot of teams with a "win now" approach. (Miami, OKC, Indy)
The Raptors, as we all feared, are stuck hopelessly in between. If the tank for the 2014 draft gets too crowded, why not go the other direction and get veterans that give us a good chance to sneak a division championship in the next couple years.
That was kind of my thinking.
Btw, I really appreciate Matt52's breakdown and analysis. He's why I ask these questions in the first place.
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Matt52 wrote: View PostThis is Pele's original post:
The Brooklyn Nets model was draft a top C (Lopez) and sign to extension using Bird Rights; trade for expensive talent (Joe Johnson) and resign players traded for expensive talent (Williams, Wallace, Humphries); trade resigned players for more expensive players (Terry, PP, KG); use exceptions (minimum and mini-MLE i..e no more than $3M) to sign players.
My reply highlighting how Brooklyn was built and the CBA:
Your reply which is a great one but the conversation was about Brooklyn and building like them:
I had a few more replies about how the Nets were built.
Your post talking about going after players in free agency rather than trading:
And that is the entire point: Brooklyn were built through trades and Bird Rights.
He was talking about building the Raptors like the Nets. Bringing anything else in to the conversation is not talking about the same thing. So yeah sure your plan/ideas looks good.
Personally I'd rather go another year in the draft ('15) since they already have 2 '16 picks and focus on free agency in 2015 and 2016.
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