Game #17: Toronto Raptors 103 - Golden State Warriors 112

[KeonClark]

I personally think he's peaked. Most NBA players peak at 24 especially the athletic ones. The question is whether or not he can sustain it. But history tells you that at age 24 is when most NBA players are their most productive and then it goes down hill from there.

If he remains a Raptor I hope he proves me wrong.

Right and wrong. Derozan has likely peaked, although his ball handling is much stronger this year. He is averaging a 3 pt spike on his last 3 year average, which is a direct result of his new ability to hit a 3 pointer per game.

However, history actually tells us players true "complete game" peak at 26-29, where they actually are at their best when it comes to contributing to winning basketball. Bird, Jordan and James are all a testament to this. Obscure examples, I know.

[p00ka]

Depends what you mean by "production". If I take 20 shots to get 20 points am I as productive as a player who takes 12 shots to get 20 points? The process is very different and process is certainly part of measuring productivity, isn't it?

Looking at PPG, AstPG or RPG tells us something about a player, definitely but those numbers don't tell us much about efficiency, productivity or value. You have to look beyond the box score. I think it's called context or something....

Does context encompass different roles, within different systems, on different teams, with different mix of players/talent? Where can I find that in the bean counting context?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Sad man, sad, that so many raptor fans have become so jaded as to spend so much time going out of their way to downgrade the best player on their team, who is still so young and still showing that he puts in the time and effort to improve on his weaknesses, and is of such high character and commitment, and on such a reasonable contract,,,, when there's so much else to whine and bitch about. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, but I want, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, I want, I want, I want, I want, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Isn't the fact that the Raptors' best players (Gay & DeRozan) are so flawed (not to mention making nearly half the total salary cap between them), precisely the reason so many fans are clamoring for a legitimate rebuild? That's also why this team just isn't very good. It's not a knock against any particular player (certainly not on a personal level), but rather an admission that this BC-constructed frankenteam needs an extreme overhaul, if it wants to be considered a true contender going forward.

As a fan, I want to root for a team that I know will be a perennial contender. I know this roster will never become that team. Therefore, I want to see the roster rebuilt so that it can become that team I can cheer for. I don't hate any players, but I do hate the dismal state of this franchise.

DeRozan is all those things you mentioned. What he isn't - and should never have been asked to be - is a #1/#2 type player asked to carry a team on his back. The problem is that with the current roster (given the CBA), there's no way to improve the team around him (and Gay), so that he/they can slide back into the appropriate slots. Therefore, we either evaluate him/them in the position they're in, or we request the team to be rebuilt so that appropriately talented players can be assigned to each slot. Bottom line is something's gotta give.

[octothorp]

I personally think he's peaked. Most NBA players peak at 24 especially the athletic ones. The question is whether or not he can sustain it. But history tells you that at age 24 is when most NBA players are their most productive and then it goes down hill from there.

If he remains a Raptor I hope he proves me wrong.

While I don't disagree with this, I think guys typically continue to get smarter through their career for a number of years after their physical and statistical peak. My optimistic view of DeRozan is that yeah, he's probably near the peak of his physical game and his statistical production too, but can he continue to improve in the relatively unmeasurable ways that contribute to winning? History also tells us that championship teams don't aren't loaded with athletic 24-year-olds. I'd happily the numbers DeRozan is currently putting up, wrapped in a more cerebral overall game. Heck, I'd give him a raise if that's what he brought to the table.

[special1]

I personally think he's peaked. Most NBA players peak at 24 especially the athletic ones. The question is whether or not he can sustain it. But history tells you that at age 24 is when most NBA players are their most productive and then it goes down hill from there.

If he remains a Raptor I hope he proves me wrong.

He's proven you wrong before, so my bet is he will again. Let's be honest....its not that hard to prove you wrong. Your players peaking at 24 is ridiculous . Most NBA players are coming out of school at 20-22 years old. It usually takes players a while to get it all together. The age is much closer to 27 or 28.

edit: it wasn't the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard...

[special1]

Isn't the fact that the Raptors' best players (Gay & DeRozan) are so flawed (not to mention making nearly half the total salary cap between them), precisely the reason so many fans are clamoring for a legitimate rebuild? That's also why this team just isn't very good. It's not a knock against any particular player (certainly not on a personal level), but rather an admission that this BC-constructed frankenteam needs an extreme overhaul, if it wants to be considered a true contender going forward.

As a fan, I want to root for a team that I know will be a perennial contender. I know this roster will never become that team. Therefore, I want to see the roster rebuilt so that it can become that team I can cheer for. I don't hate any players, but I do hate the dismal state of this franchise.

DeRozan is all those things you mentioned. What he isn't - and should never have been asked to be - is a #1/#2 type player asked to carry a team on his back. The problem is that with the current roster (given the CBA), there's no way to improve the team around him (and Gay), so that he/they can slide back into the appropriate slots. Therefore, we either evaluate him/them in the position they're in, or we request the team to be rebuilt so that appropriately talented players can be assigned to each slot. Bottom line is something's gotta give.

Is not JV one of our better players? Is he not also flawed? I mean, if he was more consistent, maybe they would give him the ball more. If he could get a decent post position, i'm sure he'd get more touches.

Also, I don't understand why posters keep lumping Gay and Derozan together. Get out of here with that BS. We all know who should go between the two. Gay makes twice as much as Demar. 9.5 million is a bargain for what Demar Brings! 19 million is ridiculous for what Rudy brings. No need to lump them together.

Truth is, I argued with you guys for months that Rudy Gay wasn't any better than Demar. Now you have him and you pretend like you weren't pleading for BC to pull the trigger....lol fans

[p00ka]

Isn't the fact that the Raptors' best players (Gay & DeRozan) are so flawed (not to mention making nearly half the total salary cap between them), precisely the reason so many fans are clamoring for a legitimate rebuild? That's also why this team just isn't very good. It's not a knock against any particular player (certainly not on a personal level), but rather an admission that this BC-constructed frankenteam needs an extreme overhaul, if it wants to be considered a true contender going forward.

As a fan, I want to root for a team that I know will be a perennial contender. I know this roster will never become that team. Therefore, I want to see the roster rebuilt so that it can become that team I can cheer for. I don't hate any players, but I do hate the dismal state of this franchise.

DeRozan is all those things you mentioned. What he isn't - and should never have been asked to be - is a #1/#2 type player asked to carry a team on his back. The problem is that with the current roster (given the CBA), there's no way to improve the team around him (and Gay), so that he/they can slide back into the appropriate slots. Therefore, we either evaluate him/them in the position they're in, or we request the team to be rebuilt so that appropriately talented players can be assigned to each slot. Bottom line is something's gotta give.

I needed to see more than some, but I've come to fully accept that this team is far more flawed than I hoped, as long as Gay is a part of it, but justifying incessant criticism of DeMar individually, by lumping him in with Gay as a package, is flawed. Yes, something has got to give, but this anti-DD bitching is like trying to argue with a bunch of PMSing chicks. It's so over the top that eventually the only way to quiet it down is to say "I'm wrong, you're right, I'm sorry",,,,,,,, but even then people come out of the woodwork to taunt those that support DeMar, over possibly the lowest denominator in a team collapse. It's sick, man.

[mcHAPPY]

Sad man, sad, that so many raptor fans have become so jaded as to spend so much time going out of their way to downgrade the best player on their team, who is still so young and still showing that he puts in the time and effort to improve on his weaknesses, and is of such high character and commitment, and on such a reasonable contract,,,, when there's so much else to whine and bitch about. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, but I want, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, I want, I want, I want, I want, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

That is one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it might be that after 18 years so many Raptor fans continue to act as cattle blindly herded to the slaughter without an ounce of resistance. It is great DeRozan is an awesome young man. But he is not contributing to wins in Toronto.

I respect your opinion p00ka but I'm want to see this team win.... waaaaa waaaa waaaaa.
DeRozan has been a part of losing for 5 years now..... waaaaaa waaaaa waaaa.
After 5 years, time for everyone to move on..... waaaa waaaaaa waaaaa.

[Axel]

What's sad is that if these players cared nearly as much as we do, there'd be no question of their efforts on the glass and on defence. All the athleticism in the world but without the will to be great.

They can talk all they want about wanting to win but until they show the will to go out and do what's necessary to be great then they are fair game for all the criticism.

[p00ka]

Matt52, I want this team to win and be much better too, but I'm talking about the bashing of the best thing we have, and in this thread, the taunting of fellow fans that like and support him, over such inconsequential part of that loss. If you think rebounding was a major factor, despite having out-rebounded them, then have a look at the bigs, who got totally dominated in the disastrous 4th qtr. I mean shit, our "future", JV, was getting embarrassed by 3" vertical old man JO. DeMar's lack of rebounding numbers was the least of issues in that game, yet some of you used it to taunt his supporters, most of whom are just as dispirited as you from that game. Not cool, man.

Edit: Oh wait, you're not dispirited about that game. It's exactly the kind of result you want. You just thought it would be fun to taunt those that are dispirited, over some minor fact that had little if anything to do with the result. Still not cool, man

[planetmars]

He's proven you wrong before, so my bet is he will again. Let's be honest....its not that hard to prove you wrong. Your players peaking at 24 is ridiculous . Most NBA players are coming out of school at 20-22 years old. It usually takes players a while to get it all together. The age is much closer to 27 or 28.

edit: it wasn't the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard...

I'm talking statistically most NBA players between the age of 24-25 is when they have their best years. But yes there can be exceptions. Again if DeMar remains a Raptor I hope he proves me wrong, but there is a possibility (again based on statistics and history it is more likely than less likely) that he will decline. I'm not a gambling man though and if I were I'd only bet if the odds were in my favour.

The study was done here:
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

Maybe it's just the way the body works especially with all the wear and tear of being an athlete.

The concern I have is that if DeMar is kept and he is asked to be the 3rd/4th guy on a championship type of team in 3-4 years, what is his role going to be like on that team? His usage will probably be down. His scoring may not be needed as much. Usually for 3rd/4th guys you need other things from them to help balance out the team. Bosh was able to change his game in Miami but he was a passable defender in Toronto and could always rebound.

I guess I'm just looking out 3-4 years from now. I don't see DeMar on that team. Maybe he will and he will surprise me though. I don't mind keeping him. I just don't consider him untouchable.

MU probably won't trade him. I personally would wait until 2015-2016 and use him in a trade for a super-star. Perhaps a sign&trade with OKC for Durant

[p00ka]

I'm talking statistically most NBA players between the age of 24-25 is when they have their best years. But yes there can be exceptions. Again if DeMar remains a Raptor I hope he proves me wrong, but there is a possibility (again based on statistics and history it is more likely than less likely) that he will decline. I'm not a gambling man though and if I were I'd only bet if the odds were in my favour.

The study was done here:
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

Maybe it's just the way the body works especially with all the wear and tear of being an athlete.

The concern I have is that if DeMar is kept and he is asked to be the 3rd/4th guy on a championship type of team in 3-4 years, what is his role going to be like on that team? His usage will probably be down. His scoring may not be needed as much. Usually for 3rd/4th guys you need other things from them to help balance out the team. Bosh was able to change his game in Miami but he was a passable defender in Toronto and could always rebound.

I guess I'm just looking out 3-4 years from now. I don't see DeMar on that team. Maybe he will and he will surprise me though. I don't mind keeping him. I just don't consider him untouchable.

MU probably won't trade him. I personally would wait until 2015-2016 and use him in a trade for a super-star. Perhaps a sign&trade with OKC for Durant

Do you know what category of players' numbers are included in that "scientific study"? For example, MANY players are only in the league for 3-5 years. If they're included, it stands to reason that peaking at 24-25 would be common. If it includes other than players that are in the league 10+ years, it's a useless "study"

[Masai Ujiri]

Lol so now according to Axel the players don't care as much about winning as we, the fans do.

Delusion personified.

[slaw]

planetmars, be careful about those age studies.

http://arturogalletti.wordpress.com/...dern-medicine/

Galletti's work here is still solid, I believe, and covers all players drafted from 1977 that played a minimum of ten seasons at greater than >400 MP, though everyone acknowledges survivor bias becomes an issue past about age 31. One thing is clear from the trends: peak age is increasing, even accounting for selection bias.

In Derozan's case, I would only say that he is a difficult guy to evaluate properly but that I have no real criticisms of him this year. He's played well as far as I am concerned.

[Axel]

Lol so now according to Axel the players don't care as much about winning as we, the fans do.

Delusion personified.

Ah the prodigal son has returned!! We've missed you so much!

What is your explanation then as to why these players, who complain about hating to lose, have all the tools available to them to be able to rebound and defend at high rates, simply don't?

NBA players care more than the average fan, but the RR fans are more than average.