Eddie Johnson of Hoopshype Ranks top 5 SGs

[JawsGT]

It's mind boggling that some are so insistent on not acknowledging the growth in his game, all over the place. Or is it lack of knowledge and way too much dependency on selected stats to maintain the old chants. Or perhaps just stuck on....... being "right" about the old shit they've been ranting about for so long? I don't know. It's beyond my understanding when they maintain stances that are simply not true. Some Toronto fans are jaded to the point of being stupid.

Yeah, clearly some just don't like his game and some of us do. I guess it's that simple. But I often wonder, is Demar better now than what people expected of him when he was drafted? Has he exceeded people's expectations year to year? He certainly has exceeded mine, and he continues to get better and surprise me so I am gonna back him 100%.

[Nilanka]

DeRozan's impressed me a lot this season. The confidence in his jumper is the biggest improvement in my books, but in some cases, that hurts him as well. Would like to see his shot selection improved a bit going forward. But I assume the coaching staff will work on that as the season progresses.

Also wish he would back down his defenders more often. He seemed to have mastered that skill during preseason, but has all but forgotten about it now.

[JimiCliff]

DeRozan's impressed me a lot this season. The confidence in his jumper is the biggest improvement in my books, but in some cases, that hurts him as well. Would like to see his shot selection improved a bit going forward. But I assume the coaching staff will work on that as the season progresses.

And that's almost to be expected. Hopefully, it's a two-steps-forward-one-step-back type scenario.

[Masai Ujiri]

Yeah, clearly some just don't like his game and some of us do. I guess it's that simple. But I often wonder, is Demar better now than what people expected of him when he was drafted? Has he exceeded people's expectations year to year? He certainly has exceeded mine, and he continues to get better and surprise me so I am gonna back him 100%.

I think part of the problem is some people had the unrealistic expectation of him being Vince Carter. He's not that good, but for 9.5M? I'll gladly take what he brings. Consider the fact that New Orleans is paying 12M for Tyreke Evans who many here suggested is supposedly better than DeMar. Or the fact that utah is probably going to have to overpay to keep Hayward, and I'm really happy with what we're getting from DeRozan.

[Masai Ujiri]

DeRozan's impressed me a lot this season. The confidence in his jumper is the biggest improvement in my books, but in some cases, that hurts him as well. Would like to see his shot selection improved a bit going forward. But I assume the coaching staff will work on that as the season progresses.

Also wish he would back down his defenders more often. He seemed to have mastered that skill during preseason, but has all but forgotten about it now.

I would like to see this more as well, but I think teams have adjusted a bit to this. The Heat threw bigger defenders at him for most of the game, obviously the Pacers had Paul George on him and iirc the Wizards used Ariza.

We saw him go into the post a few times when Ray Allen was guarding him, so I think he recognizes that that's an asset against smaller defenders.

[OldSkoolCool]

He has a diverse offensive game, sort of like Wade does. He can drive and take many (not all) guards off the bounce, he can do this with or without screens, he can shoot curling off of screens, he can get into the paint, he is good in transition, he can post and has numerous moves in the low block, and he can catch and shoot as well, and gets to the line well too. What he doesn't do well is being a primary ball handler and trying to take his man face up in ISO. That is all really. So, yeah he does have a diverse offensive game, which is probably why he demands double teams, because guess what homie, 1-D players so not demand double teams. Nobody is gonna double Novak are they?

Furthermore, he has improved his handle and defense (alot) and is becoming an increasingly better and more important facilitator. The dude is balling, just accept it. He ain't one dimensional, offensively or overall. He continues to improve and will continue to make your arguments less and less realistic. You keep hanging on to his mid range and 3pt percentages, but that alone isn't enough to suggest he is one dimensional. Given the way you characterize 1-D players, I think most guys in this league fit the mold.

It seems, perhaps, that many on here, maybe yourself included, are not gonna be satisfied until we have a top5 league player on this team. Nothing else will satisfy you guys, and despite the fact that this team is performing so well and doing such great things on the court, it just ain't good enough unless TO gets another Vince f*ckin Carter!! And f*ck Vince Carter BTW.

Go Raps!!

First Bold: "A diverse offensive game, sort of like Wade" - are you freaking kidding me?!!! I'm not going to elaborate.

Second Bold: "take many (not all) guards off the bounce" - and yet he constantly is forced to take contested jump shots because he can't get around his defender. Or chooses not to, so whether or not he can doesn't matter, because he doesn't do it. Get the "potential" out of your head and think in terms of "production"

Third Bold: "with or without screens" - with screens yes, without, no. See above.

Fourth Bold: "Can shoot off screens" - I can too, doesn't mean I'm very good at it. Honestly he is a terrible shooter that just takes a lot of shots. See post below by S.R. about shot selection.

Fifth Bold: "Get into the paint" - well seeing as this is under the same category as the second and third bold...its not really another dimension now is it??

Sixth Bold: "Can post up" - Indeed he is very good at it. However, he doesn't do it anymore. He is a 5th year player. I want production, not "he can" or "potential"

Seventh Bold: "Can catch and shoot" - this is almost under the fourth bold, because DD can't get open without using screens. Also when he is left open on a catch and shoot it is usually beyond the 3, which he can't shoot. I can catch and shoot too, doesn't mean I'm good at it. DD shoots 34% from everywhere outside of 10 feet. That is all the argument I need.

Eigth Bold: "gets to the line well" - Like S.R. said, not because he gets to the rim, because he can't get around defenders.

Ninth Bold: "what he doesn't do well is take his man face up in ISO" - I thought you said he can get by many guards, see "Second Bold". You are killing yourself here man.

Tenth Bold: "Improved handle and D (a lot)" - Since the Gay trade, DD has had to dribble more...the result is a massive increase in turnovers. His handle has improved yes, but not as much as you think. Defense is still terrible, he still gets lost on switches, rotations and can't navigate a screen. He is a lot better yes, but that speaks to how bad he was in the first place.

Eleventh Bold: "continues to improve" - He is still jacking up a ton of mid ranged game. Has shown no evolution in the area called "taking better shots". This is why he statistically has been at a flatline since his second year with only MINOR improvements. I admit he has improved, but his PRODUCTION hasn't. And that is what he is payed to do, produce.

Numero Twelve: "Keep hanging on mid range and 3 pt percentages" - Since 70% of his shots taken are from those 2 areas, I will keep stating them. That 70% at 34% shooting is why he isn't a good offensive player.

13: "isn't enough to say he is one dimensional" - In terms of production. It totally is. He only produces well on 30% of his shots taken, which is only at the rim...which he can only do off screens....or in transition

Last paragraph: Well I do want this team to be a contender every year, and to do so we need a superstar, DD isn't even an All-Star, so no, I wont be happy. Your argument is weak.

OH I FORGOT ONE: "Transistion" - finishing yes, passing no. He wastes a ton of easy open court opportunities of his teammates. To tunnel vision.

"DD has a diverse offensive game, like Wade" <------- I can't get over this, maybe having beer goggles like this is the reason why you guys think he is so good....

It's mostly the long two's after one pass that drive people nuts. DeMar gets a lot of FTA, but not by attacking the rim - a lot of them come from pump fakes and hesitations on his long two's. Good enough, but it would benefit the entire team if both DeMar and Ross attacked the rim a couple more times a game (not a drastic change, just a slight shift) to put pressure on the opposition interior D, get bigs in foul trouble, and make the D rotate/help.

When DeMar takes an open long two after good ball movement, I'm fine with that. When he takes a contested long two after one pass because "that's his game" and "he's the leading scorer so he should take those shots," I'm less fine with that. This team is capable of a wide variety of shots that score at higher rates than a contested long two from DeMar.

More and more though, we're talking about a small shift here and not a dramatic overhaul. Ball movement is great and the variety of shots taken is so much better than pre-trade. It's more like the evolution would be complete if DeMar would just adjust a bit more.

I hate watching that Bargnani pump fake thingy he has been doing lately...

It's mind boggling that some are so insistent on not acknowledging the growth in his game, all over the place. Or is it lack of knowledge and way too much dependency on selected stats to maintain the old chants. Or perhaps just stuck on....... being "right" about the old shit they've been ranting about for so long? I don't know. It's beyond my understanding when they maintain stances that are simply not true. Some Toronto fans are jaded to the point of being stupid.

Again, if he keeps taking the vast majority of his shots from areas where he doesn't excel, it doesn't matter how much "growth" he has in his game...he will still be an inefficient offensive option.

And no, he hasn't grown into a passer, or gotten better at driving. All he does is shoot. And he hasn't even managed to shoot the 3 pointer yet.

[BigCamB]

1. Harden (i cringe saying this as his defense is so bad, but overall I guess he still has a mighty affect on the outcome of a game in a positive way)
2. Wade
3. Stephenson (pleased to see him mentioned a lot here, so good all-round, never knew how good a passer he was before this season)
4. Thompson
5. W. Matthews
6.Ginobili, hmmm, i'd like to put him at 5, he's still playing at a very high level this season doing usual Ginobili things, but i dunno. his role is a fraction smaller, but still has a huge impact on games.
7. DeRozan.


Beal is not as bad as some people make out, he'll be a very good player. But yeh, not top 5 atm..
Edit- forgot aflalo, how could I as we will NOT be trading TRoss for him!! but yeh he's in there as well, probably 5-6ish.

[p00ka]

OldSkoolCool


There's opinion, then there's facts. If one has a distorted view of facts, how credible are the opinions?

I disagree with some of your opinions, though have no doubt one can pick a possession here and there to somehow justify some of them. I'm not going to return some elaborate arguing over opinions of this or that aspect of his game. Those discussions tend to go nowhere, except the best case scenario being to agree to disagree.

Actually most of these opinions are based on stats alone, and show zero recognition of a number of factors. No sense re-hashing those factors, because it's all been done before, and those using totally stat based opinions always write off legitimate non-stat factors as "excuses". Because they don't understand the nuances of the game? Don't know, but whatever. There's some factual stuff that you're off on though:
- "the result is a massive increase in turnovers"... an increase from 2.27/gm to 2.5/gm is massive? Huh? Considering how much more he's been handling the ball, AND play making, that's miniscule. In fact I'd call it an indication that he's taking care of the ball better since the trade. The eye test confirms it, but you see different? Huh?
- This while increasing his assist/gm from 2.7 to 4.4, plus there's no stat for how many nice "hockey assist" or nice set-up passes he's made and bigs haven't finished. But you come up with "finishing yes, passing no. He wastes a ton of easy open court opportunities of his teammates. To tunnel vision." Wow, "a ton" hey. What's a ton mean to you?????? Same as your above "massive"? This statement of yours is ridiculous.
- "Defense is still terrible". Though this might be considered simply arguable opinion, it's so out to lunch, I had to include it. The eye test alone blows that comment out of the water, but since you're a stats centric guy, note that during this stretch since the trade, he has consistently out-performed his SG counterpart (the guy he mostly guards), while he's been constantly guarded by the opponent's top perimeter defender, while also being double teamed often. If he's "terrible" then some of the perceived top defenders in the league are total garbage, even with lots of help.

At the end of the day, I find it quite pathetic that the very common refrain when AB was the whipping boy was that "we just want players that work hard and are dedicated to improving". Now that AB is gone, any reference to such qualities is written off as near meaningless, while people try hard EVERY DAY to tear down his stats, despite very clear evidence, if you know about the game besides stats, that he's made some serious leaps this year, all over the place. At barely 24, there's also no reason whatsoever to not expect continued growth for years to come,,,,,,,,,, but yeah, as a Raptors fan, while the team is doing so bloody well, playing both entertaining and winning basketball (a joy to see actually), enjoy ripping on people that express enjoyment of the lad, and ripping the lad himself. You did a fine job there.

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[Masai Ujiri]

I don't know how you can say DeMar hasn't improved as a playmaker, when his assist rate is nearly double his career average (30% increase from last year), while his turnover rate has remained the same.

People give Chandler Parsons a lot of credit for being a do-it-all kind of guy... well...

Parsons Ast% (on a superior offensive team I might add): 17.2%
DeMar Ast%: 16.6%

Parsons TRB%: 9.1% (at 6'10)
DeRozan TRB%: 6.5%

But I like DeMar too much so...

[OldSkoolCool]

There's opinion, then there's facts. If one has a distorted view of facts, how credible are the opinions?

I disagree with some of your opinions, though have no doubt one can pick a possession here and there to somehow justify some of them.


Actually most of these opinions are based on stats alone, and show zero recognition of a number of factors. No sense re-hashing those factors, because it's all been done before, and those using totally stat based opinions always write off legitimate non-stat factors as "excuses". Because they don't understand the nuances of the game? Don't know, but whatever. There's some factual stuff that you're off on though:


- "the result is a massive increase in turnovers"... an increase from 2.27/gm to 2.5/gm is massive? Huh? Considering how much more he's been handling the ball, AND play making, that's miniscule. In fact I'd call it an indication that he's taking care of the ball better since the trade. The eye test confirms it, but you see different? Huh?

- This while increasing his assist/gm from 2.7 to 4.4, plus there's no stat for how many nice "hockey assist" or nice set-up passes he's made and bigs haven't finished. But you come up with "finishing yes, passing no. He wastes a ton of easy open court opportunities of his teammates. To tunnel vision." Wow, "a ton" hey. What's a ton mean to you?????? Same as your above "massive"? This statement of yours is ridiculous.

- "Defense is still terrible". Though this might be considered simply arguable opinion, it's so out to lunch, I had to include it. The eye test alone blows that comment out of the water, but since you're a stats centric guy, note that during this stretch since the trade, he has consistently out-performed his SG counterpart (the guy he mostly guards),

-I could use the same argument. I think you have a skewed opinion on DD's value to the team.

-I am still waiting for a logic description of why you guys think DD is good. I've killed a few threads by saying this multiple times and still have not got an answer. I call BS that is has been done before.

-As for turnovers, he has done better the last 3/4 games. But right after the trade he was terrible at turning the ball over. In the Indiana game for example, you remember him stealing the ball from Paul George a few times. I remember that right before that he turned the ball over, then was slow to get back, and got lucky to pick the ball from Paul, who Lowry had to pick up, creating a defensive nightmare. I understand that players turn the ball over, but it is how they handle themselves after the TO that matters, if he hustled hard back after, I would be ok with them, but he consistently doesn't. The only time I have seen him hustle after a TO in the last few seasons is when he got the chase down block on Jose, after he turned the ball over. Also on the season as a whole, when he handles the ball a lot his TOs go way up. I'm not going to change my opinion until he does this consistently. And if there is one thing DD is consistent at, it's being inconsistent.

-Using his "SG matchup" is a poor way of defending his defensive prowess. Ross usually guards their best offensive player. Also he still is terrible at close outs, he miss times rotations more so than any other player on the Raps, and he gets lost on coverages/screens. He is overly help conscious, yet somtimes doesn't fully commit to the help, this leads to defensive breakdowns that the whole team has to rotate for. Not every player is perfect, but he needs to be much better defensively if the Raps team is going to be better. The major contributors (not number 1 guys, just major) all need to be 2-way players. DD does not fall under that category.

-I will admit, he has done a better job as a playmaker as of late (last 5). 1st half against Miami he was GREAT. Kid balled hard. However, he was consistently inconsistent and decided to jack up 5 missed ISO shots in a row in the fourth that destroyed any momentum for the raps and was a major factor in why they lost. Those 5 shots were -basically- turnovers due to the fact that he is shooting shots that he has an extremely low percentage of making, early in the shot clock, with no ball movement. I hate that gameplay and you rarely see good teams/players do that. He has improved, but like his 3 pointer, are we just going to see glimpses of it?

I would love to see him have a 40 game stretch of doing well passing, shooting the three, defending, etc. After that I will believe that he has grown as a player. I like to look at the big picture when evaluating a player.

**I really should put emphasis on DDs close outs, he closes out too far, and even sometimes goes as far as being right beside the guy (like WTF) before planting his foot and stopping. This is fundamentally awful close out basketball. It would be acceptable if he consistently was able to force his guy off the three point line (which would mean that he is being told to do so for coaching strategy), however he is usually too slow and ball watches on DD that his guy is still able to get the shot off on a good number of possessions

[p00ka]

OldSkoolCool,

You're response to my disputing you're "massive increase in turnovers" claim is,,,,,,,, ugh, I must back off being blunt,,,,, leaves me thinking this is a senseless conversation that will go nowhere. You've got your opinion, I have mine, but I have to respond to this "I like to look at the big picture when evaluating a player. " statement you ended with. IMO, that fits right beside the oft used "I'm looking at long term, while you're short-sighted" type refrain used on here as some justification for one's opinions. They're both pompous, holier-than-thou, statements that lend nothing to a discussion but demean the weak or inflame the strong. Get over yourself.

[Masai Ujiri]

-I could use the same argument. I think you have a skewed opinion on DD's value to the team.

-I am still waiting for a logic description of why you guys think DD is good. I've killed a few threads by saying this multiple times and still have not got an answer. I call BS that is has been done before.

-As for turnovers, he has done better the last 3/4 games. But right after the trade he was terrible at turning the ball over. In the Indiana game for example, you remember him stealing the ball from Paul George a few times. I remember that right before that he turned the ball over, then was slow to get back, and got lucky to pick the ball from Paul, who Lowry had to pick up, creating a defensive nightmare. I understand that players turn the ball over, but it is how they handle themselves after the TO that matters, if he hustled hard back after, I would be ok with them, but he consistently doesn't. The only time I have seen him hustle after a TO in the last few seasons is when he got the chase down block on Jose, after he turned the ball over. Also on the season as a whole, when he handles the ball a lot his TOs go way up. I'm not going to change my opinion until he does this consistently. And if there is one thing DD is consistent at, it's being inconsistent.

-Using his "SG matchup" is a poor way of defending his defensive prowess. Ross usually guards their best offensive player. Also he still is terrible at close outs, he miss times rotations more so than any other player on the Raps, and he gets lost on coverages/screens. He is overly help conscious, yet somtimes doesn't fully commit to the help, this leads to defensive breakdowns that the whole team has to rotate for. Not every player is perfect, but he needs to be much better defensively if the Raps team is going to be better. The major contributors (not number 1 guys, just major) all need to be 2-way players. DD does not fall under that category.

-I will admit, he has done a better job as a playmaker as of late (last 5). 1st half against Miami he was GREAT. Kid balled hard. However, he was consistently inconsistent and decided to jack up 5 missed ISO shots in a row in the fourth that destroyed any momentum for the raps and was a major factor in why they lost. Those 5 shots were -basically- turnovers due to the fact that he is shooting shots that he has an extremely low percentage of making, early in the shot clock, with no ball movement. I hate that gameplay and you rarely see good teams/players do that. He has improved, but like his 3 pointer, are we just going to see glimpses of it?

I would love to see him have a 40 game stretch of doing well passing, shooting the three, defending, etc. After that I will believe that he has grown as a player. I like to look at the big picture when evaluating a player.

**I really should put emphasis on DDs close outs, he closes out too far, and even sometimes goes as far as being right beside the guy (like WTF) before planting his foot and stopping. This is fundamentally awful close out basketball. It would be acceptable if he consistently was able to force his guy off the three point line (which would mean that he is being told to do so for coaching strategy), however he is usually too slow and ball watches on DD that his guy is still able to get the shot off on a good number of possessions

I think we should look into amnestying DeRozan.

[Nilanka]

I think we should look into amnestying DeRozan.

If there's anyone who could swindle the league into allowing us two Amnesty Provisions, it's Masai.

[OldSkoolCool]

OldSkoolCool,

You're response to my disputing you're "massive increase in turnovers" claim is,,,,,,,, ugh, I must back off being blunt,,,,, leaves me thinking this is a senseless conversation that will go nowhere. You've got your opinion, I have mine, but I have to respond to this "I like to look at the big picture when evaluating a player. " statement you ended with. IMO, that fits right beside the oft used "I'm looking at long term, while you're short-sighted" type refrain used on here as some justification for one's opinions. They're both pompous, holier-than-thou, statements that lend nothing to a discussion but demean the weak or inflame the strong. Get over yourself.

When I see "since the Gay trade", I can't counter with saying "body of work". Every player has hot and cold streaks. Even since the Gay trade, DD has both struggled, and excelled. I use large bodies of work to justify my opinions because these 'long term' ideals are more accurate.

If this makes me pompous, holier-than-thou that demeans the weak and inflates the strong, so be it. But I will not be swayed in from my opinion by the play of a player from the last 13 games. I think DD has too many faults for his strengths.


Also using an Amnesty on DD......lol I have DD ranked as a top 10 SG in the league in my first post in this thread....

[Masai Ujiri]

But before we amnesty him, let me say my piece.

-I could use the same argument. I think you have a skewed opinion on DD's value to the team.

-I am still waiting for a logic description of why you guys think DD is good. I've killed a few threads by saying this multiple times and still have not got an answer. I call BS that is has been done before.

Umm no. Many people on here including myself have explained why we KNOW DeRozan is good (not "think"). Either you are blind or simply chose not to read those posts. I'm going to go with the latter.

-As for turnovers, he has done better the last 3/4 games.

Done better relative to what exactly? His turnover rate is only slightly higher (10.4% to 9.6%) than last season through 32 games. He didn't just recently stop turning the ball over. Meanwhile his assist rate is a career high at 16.6% compared to 12.0%. Newsflash, that means he has gotten better at turning a higher rate of his possessions into assists than turnovers. That is not up for debate, period. You are 100% incorrect.

But right after the trade he was terrible at turning the ball over.

This is a flat LIE. Stop. He had 2 turnovers in each of the first 5 games following the trade. Guess what, that's LOWER than his season average, so how on God's green Earth is that "terrible at turning the ball over"? Additionally he has only had one bad turnover game in the 14 (15?) games since the trade, which was the game with 6 @ Dallas (to somewhat compensate he had 9 assists in that game).

In the Indiana game for example, you remember him stealing the ball from Paul George a few times. I remember that right before that he turned the ball over, then was slow to get back, and got lucky to pick the ball from Paul, who Lowry had to pick up, creating a defensive nightmare. I understand that players turn the ball over, but it is how they handle themselves after the TO that matters, if he hustled hard back after, I would be ok with them, but he consistently doesn't. The only time I have seen him hustle after a TO in the last few seasons is when he got the chase down block on Jose, after he turned the ball over. Also on the season as a whole, when he handles the ball a lot his TOs go way up. I'm not going to change my opinion until he does this consistently. And if there is one thing DD is consistent at, it's being inconsistent.

Alright, I cannot believe you're actually making me do this, but I just went to NBA.com and watched the game log videos of his turnovers from the Indiana game from Jan 1st. Sorry I don't know how to embed them but you can watch here: http://stats.nba.com/gameDetail.html?GameID=0021300469. Just click on his turnover stat.

Turnover #1: DeRozan improper footwork on the jab-step, travels. (Rare call in the NBA and rare for him especially)
Turnover #2: Loses the ball off Granger steal, swipes at it then runs back.
Turnover #3: Dribbles off his foot then runs back

So please explain to me where the problem is? The play that you just mentioned didn't even happen in this game... I watched the steals too. Yes DeRozan stole the ball then lost the ball and George was on the break, except THREE Raptors were back not just Lowry, and DeRozan got back the same time as Hansbrough (DeMar was leading the previous break off the steal) after RUNNING back to intercept George's pass to Hill. I'm actually not sure what on earth you're talking about?

Using his "SG matchup" is a poor way of defending his defensive prowess. Ross usually guards their best offensive player. Also he still is terrible at close outs, he miss times rotations more so than any other player on the Raps, and he gets lost on coverages/screens. He is overly help conscious, yet somtimes doesn't fully commit to the help, this leads to defensive breakdowns that the whole team has to rotate for. Not every player is perfect, but he needs to be much better defensively if the Raps team is going to be better. The major contributors (not number 1 guys, just major) all need to be 2-way players. DD does not fall under that category.

Nobody is saying DeRozan has defensive prowess. He's not a stopper, and Ross has more lateral quickness which is why he defends the other teams best scorer. All these things you're saying are extremely subjective, and generally we're not going to agree on them. The people who like DeRozan will say he doesn't make nearly that many defensive mistakes, while guys like you will say he makes a mistake on damn near every defensive possession. What I will say is that DeRozan is not a liability on the defensive end of the floor. He doesn't give you a boost there, but he doesn't hurt you. I'd really like to know what your definition of 2-way player is. Is that someone who's a stopper on the defensive end and can get theirs on offense too? Because there is no team in the league that has that at all 5 spots (even the Pacers don't).

I will admit, he has done a better job as a playmaker as of late (last 5). 1st half against Miami he was GREAT. Kid balled hard. However, he was consistently inconsistent and decided to jack up 5 missed ISO shots in a row in the fourth that destroyed any momentum for the raps and was a major factor in why they lost. Those 5 shots were -basically- turnovers due to the fact that he is shooting shots that he has an extremely low percentage of making, early in the shot clock, with no ball movement. I hate that gameplay and you rarely see good teams/players do that. He has improved, but like his 3 pointer, are we just going to see glimpses of it

No, no, no. He has been a good playmaker all season as evidenced by the stats I posted earlier. He has been awesome as a playmaker since the Gay trade, averaging almost 5 assists per game with an about 2:1 AST/TO ratio.

Again, you're making me watch video. Alright.

Here's the link if you wanna see for yourself (click on his FGA) http://stats.nba.com/playerGameLogs....rowsPerPage=25

Shot #1: Missed corner 3 off the pass from Lowry, wide open
Shot #2: Early Post up on Chalmers, bunny shot from 10 feet
Shot #3: Pull up jumper off the catch over Wade, make.
Shot #4: Raptors poor offensive possession, Amir badly misses summer 3, DD gets the ball off pass, misses J with 2 seconds on shot clock (btw these kind of shots are the ones I'm talking about that reduce his shooting efficiency that he has no control over because the team gives him the ball with no time (not blaming anyone, that's what happens when you're miscast as the 1st option), I'll denote them with TS)
Shot #5: DeRozan has to take a tough fadeaway with 1 second on the game clock, hits it.
Shot #6: Vasquez loses the ball, DeRozan gets it 30 feet from the basket with 5 on the clock, attacks Haslem, pulls up hits. Bailout.
Shot #7: Layup on the break
Shot #8: Gets an open mid-range J off a sharp cut, good screen to give extra separation. Make.
Shot #9: Gets an open corner shot off a cut (Wade trips over himself and leaves DD open), prob should've stepped back a little bit to make it a 3 pointer. Make.
Shot #10: Open corner three off the catch. Make.
Shot #11: Raptors run a screen play with DeMar and Amir with 9 seconds on the clock. Allen and Anderson do a great job defensively and DD can't free himself. Amir moves away to give DD space, Anderson switches to DD. Isolation, takes a stepback 3 with 4 seconds on the shot clock. Terrible shot. (Will denote these with BS)
Shot #12: DeRozan takes an open corner three off the catch. Good shot, bad result as he misses badly.
Shot #13: DeRozan attacks, Ray Allen gets bumped by Amir on the screen. Wide open 15 footer, DD misses it. Good shot, bad result.
Shot #14: DeRozan attacks the rim, has the open lane, tries to lay it in over Andersen, misses, probably got fouled but no call. Good shot, bad result.
Shot #15: Posts up Ray Allen, spins away to create space, which leaves Allen behind him. Hits the turnaround from about 12 feet. Relatively difficult move to pull off, wouldn't call it a bad shot.
Shot #16: DeRozan tries to get Allen up in the air with the fake, Ray doesn't bite, DD shoots anyway. BS
Shot #17: DD quick crossover on Allen, creates space from about 17 feet and shoots, misses. For the sake of argument let's call it a BS
Shot #18: DeRozan drives and dunks.

So I count 3 bad shots in that game out of 18. None of which were on consecutive possessions. Not 5 missed iso shots in a row. But that's cool, as long as we're making things up, Jonas is the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon.

I would love to see him have a 40 game stretch of doing well passing, shooting the three, defending, etc. After that I will believe that he has grown as a player. I like to look at the big picture when evaluating a player.

We're almost at 40 games so by then you'll have to believe that he has grown as a player. Either that or you haven't been watching.

**I really should put emphasis on DDs close outs, he closes out too far, and even sometimes goes as far as being right beside the guy (like WTF) before planting his foot and stopping. This is fundamentally awful close out basketball. It would be acceptable if he consistently was able to force his guy off the three point line (which would mean that he is being told to do so for coaching strategy), however he is usually too slow and ball watches on DD that his guy is still able to get the shot off on a good number of possessions

Please do us all a favour and make a compilation of this if you can. I'd really like to see how awful he is at closing out.

I'll watch for it in the next game specifically.