Can't think of a superstar that fits better than Kevin Love

[white men can't jump]

Not to be debbie downer here .. but what evidence shows Amir makes his team better given all the crappy raps teams hes played on. No winning success whatsoever. Im not high on Love at all - think hes totally overrated. But lets be serious, Amir is miles away.

Love also has no winning success. Advanced stats aside...simple W-L...Love has been in the league since 2008...

Season Minny Raps
08-09 | 24-58 | - (no Amir)
09-10 | 15-67 | 40-42 (Bosh's final year here, Amir's first)
10-11 | 17-65 | 22-60
11-12 | 26-40 | 23-43
12-13 | 31-51 | 34-48
13-14 | 17-17 | 16-16

Love missed a big chunk of 12-13, but other than that, played at least about 3/4 of each season. He has also had teams that have at least as much, if not more overall talent than Toronto (I'd say more in the post-Bosh years). Yet they have not done significantly better in any season. They haven't even really been mediocre. They've been bad.

Is Love a more productive, "better" player than Amir? Yes. I fully acknowledge that. But is he a franchise player you can build a contender around? Not so sure. And while Amir isn't that guy, having him, a net positive on your team, at a bargain price for non-rookie scale guys, especially bigs, is excellent value, good for your team, and he could easily fit next to that elite player if you ever get him.

*Basically my argument is I'm very skeptical about Love, believing he wouldn't be worth the cost in assets if you have to trade, nor worth the cost in dollars because of how difficult it makes to try and build a winner with him, since I don't see him as the franchise player/leader on a contender. If he were that guy, I feel like it would show in Minnesota and so far it hasn't.

[charlesnba23]

Seriously guys? Not high on Kevin Love? Come on now... This is ridiculous. Dude is the best rebounder of the league, 2nd best scorer, can shoot from everywhere, is huge, young and can pass the ball. Maybe he's not a great, lockdown defender, but man, how can you not be high on a player like this.

[white men can't jump]

Seriously guys? Not high on Kevin Love? Come on now... This is ridiculous. Dude is the best rebounder of the league, 2nd best scorer, can shoot from everywhere, is huge, young and can pass the ball. Maybe he's not a great, lockdown defender, but man, how can you not be high on a player like this.

Again...he does all that and what do his teams have to show for it? Most guys who produce at that level carry their teams to at least modest success.

If my team is going to acquire/sign a max level player, I'd like to be confident of him having a level of impact worthy of his contract.

[Masai Ujiri]

Again...he does all that and what do his teams have to show for it? Most guys who produce at that level carry their teams to at least modest success.

If my team is going to acquire/sign a max level player, I'd like to be confident of him having a level of impact worthy of his contract.

Same garbage people said about Zach Randolph before he joined the Grizzlies.

And Love is A LOT better than Randolph. And our supporting cast is better than the Grizzlies one.

[OldSkoolCool]

Seriously guys? Not high on Kevin Love? Come on now... This is ridiculous. Dude is the best rebounder of the league, 2nd best scorer, can shoot from everywhere, is huge, young and can pass the ball. Maybe he's not a great, lockdown defender, but man, how can you not be high on a player like this.

Lol so true. Would love to have some Love in my Raps life.

Again...he does all that and what do his teams have to show for it? Most guys who produce at that level carry their teams to at least modest success.

If my team is going to acquire/sign a max level player, I'd like to be confident of him having a level of impact worthy of his contract.

The problem with Minny, is that they have zero defensive wings and no talented help defense bigs. This means they can score 120 points in a game, which is largely due to Love, but still lose by ten, which is largely due to the rest of his team not being able to guard an inanimate object.

[BobLoblaw]

Same garbage people said about Zach Randolph before he joined the Grizzlies.

And Love is A LOT better than Randolph. And our supporting cast is better than the Grizzlies one.

I agree in general, but I wouldn't use that example. ZBO was a lazy chucker before he joined the Grizzlies. Lionel Hollins saved his career, and he just grew up. Maybe numbers look somewhat similar, but shot selection, effort and attitude, night and day. Knicks ZBO and Grizzlies ZBO is like Bargnani vs. Amir Johnson in terms of hustle.

Unlike Knicks ZBO, Love is already a great player. He just played on some of the worst constructed teams in recent NBA history, not to mention injuries. Great players miss playoffs sometimes. Kobe did it, Kareem did it, Garnett did it. It's really hard to play 3 on 5 with no spacing and no rim protection, and that about describes a typical Kahn Wolves team. Even this year, his best supporting cast by far, but where's rim protection? There is none in that starting lineup. And two perimeter starters who can't shoot. They might have enough talent to make the playoffs nonetheless, but it's not a well fitting team.

Fit matters, just look at the Blazers; did they add a ton of talent this summer? They got rid of JJ Hickson who was a nice player but a terrible fit (they had no rim protection), they replaced him with a decent rim protector (Robin Lopez), and they added a bench. And a mediocre team turns into a very good one.

[Masai Ujiri]

I agree in general, but I wouldn't use that example. ZBO was a lazy chucker before he joined the Grizzlies. Lionel Hollins saved his career, and he just grew up. Maybe numbers look somewhat similar, but shot selection, effort and attitude, night and day. Knicks ZBO and Grizzlies ZBO is like Bargnani vs. Amir Johnson in terms of hustle.

Unlike Knicks ZBO, Love is already a great player. He just played on some of the worst constructed teams in recent NBA history, not to mention injuries. Great players miss playoffs sometimes. Kobe did it, Kareem did it, Garnett did it. It's really hard to play 3 on 5 with no spacing and no rim protection, and that about describes a typical Kahn Wolves team. Even this year, his best supporting cast by far, but where's rim protection? There is none in that starting lineup. And two perimeter starters who can't shoot. They might have enough talent to make the playoffs nonetheless, but it's not a well fitting team.

Fit matters, just look at the Blazers; did they add a ton of talent this summer? They got rid of JJ Hickson who was a nice player but a terrible fit (they had no rim protection), they replaced him with a decent rim protector (Robin Lopez), and they added a bench. And a mediocre team turns into a very good one.

Agree with the bulk of your post.

Knicks ZBo was statistically identical to the current Zach Randolph. Perception of him changed because he moved to a winning team.

[BobLoblaw]

Agree with the bulk of your post.

Knicks ZBo was statistically identical to the current Zach Randolph. Perception of him changed because he moved to a winning team.

Not a perception thing at all. His first few years with Memphis, before injuries, he was a beast. A changed player.

Current Randolph is simply in decline. He had injuries and he's not playing very well overall. But he's still very different compared to the Knicks/Blazers version. A much better shot selection, more effort, even if the raw numbers may look similar. The problem is that physically he's not at his peak anymore.

[BigCamB]

I agree in general, but I wouldn't use that example. ZBO was a lazy chucker before he joined the Grizzlies. Lionel Hollins saved his career, and he just grew up. Maybe numbers look somewhat similar, but shot selection, effort and attitude, night and day. Knicks ZBO and Grizzlies ZBO is like Bargnani vs. Amir Johnson in terms of hustle.

Unlike Knicks ZBO, Love is already a great player. He just played on some of the worst constructed teams in recent NBA history, not to mention injuries. Great players miss playoffs sometimes. Kobe did it, Kareem did it, Garnett did it. It's really hard to play 3 on 5 with no spacing and no rim protection, and that about describes a typical Kahn Wolves team. Even this year, his best supporting cast by far, but where's rim protection? There is none in that starting lineup. And two perimeter starters who can't shoot. They might have enough talent to make the playoffs nonetheless, but it's not a well fitting team.

Fit matters, just look at the Blazers; did they add a ton of talent this summer? They got rid of JJ Hickson who was a nice player but a terrible fit (they had no rim protection), they replaced him with a decent rim protector (Robin Lopez), and they added a bench. And a mediocre team turns into a very good one.

Great post, completely agree.

[mountio]

Love also has no winning success. Advanced stats aside...simple W-L...Love has been in the league since 2008...

Season Minny Raps
08-09 | 24-58 | - (no Amir)
09-10 | 15-67 | 40-42 (Bosh's final year here, Amir's first)
10-11 | 17-65 | 22-60
11-12 | 26-40 | 23-43
12-13 | 31-51 | 34-48
13-14 | 17-17 | 16-16

Love missed a big chunk of 12-13, but other than that, played at least about 3/4 of each season. He has also had teams that have at least as much, if not more overall talent than Toronto (I'd say more in the post-Bosh years). Yet they have not done significantly better in any season. They haven't even really been mediocre. They've been bad.

Is Love a more productive, "better" player than Amir? Yes. I fully acknowledge that. But is he a franchise player you can build a contender around? Not so sure. And while Amir isn't that guy, having him, a net positive on your team, at a bargain price for non-rookie scale guys, especially bigs, is excellent value, good for your team, and he could easily fit next to that elite player if you ever get him.

*Basically my argument is I'm very skeptical about Love, believing he wouldn't be worth the cost in assets if you have to trade, nor worth the cost in dollars because of how difficult it makes to try and build a winner with him, since I don't see him as the franchise player/leader on a contender. If he were that guy, I feel like it would show in Minnesota and so far it hasn't.

I think we are saying the exact same thing. I 100% agree on Love. If he REALLY were a top 10 NBA player, how the hell can his team have not made the playoffs in a league where 16 teams make it every year, especially when you consider that a) several of the teams ahead of him have 2 top ten players and b) he plays with two other top 50ish players (rubio and Pekovic). Its completely inexcusable and the only conclusion I can draw is that he is NOT really a top 10 player. Is he a good player? for sure. Arguably very good. Probably top 25-30 or something - but not as good as people think.
I realize there have been injuries and other circumstances and that would certainly explain not making the playoffs EVERY year .. but doesnt explain not making them ever (and looks like another missed playoffs this year)

My only point is Amir is like a mini-Love in terms of advanced stats over-rating him and people claiming that he "leads to winning" - when in fact he hasnt at all. Reason? His game isnt influential enough to really make a difference in winning and losing. Hes a GREAT complimentary player .. but the fate of the raps has gone (good or bad) with the more influential players (AB, DD, RG etc).

Bottom line, I like both players and would certianly take both on my team in a heartbeat. But, if you overvalue both as some people want to and think that Love is a top ten guy or amir is anything more than a great 4th/5th starter and glue guy, then your team will be in trouble.

[JawsGT]

I have to pipe in here. I'll defend Love for the sake of adding to the discussion. I think all the points made are valid. However, given Love's production, it's hard to blame him for the lack of success in Minny. If anything, this suggests to me that there are flaws with the rest of the roster or with the coaching staff. He would be the MVP this year if this Minny team could win. So this suggests to me that the problem isn't with him. If it says anything about him, is that he isn't a leader, which is fine as far as the Raps are concerned because we wouldn't be acquiring him for his leadership skills. Nor would we be building around him. As the OP suggested, it would be about adding him to an already solid roster, but I'll admit, losing Amir would hurt because he is one of the leaders on this roster.

As for his defense, I really don't know, but I'll go with the consensus that it isn't very good. However, the same is said of Boozer and Lee, yet both of those guys are important parts of very good defensive teams. Neither are the anchors of course, but the point is that teams can succeed defensively with a weaker defensive big man. Making these comparisons between different players on different teams is sketchy of course. Nonetheless, I think it's possible for Love to exist on a strong defensive team like the Raps. It would depend alot on JV of course, and the rest of the roster providing help, but perhaps it's possible to add Love and not take a huge step back defensively.

[Evia99]

kevin love is arguably a 1st/2nd team all nba player. amir Johnson is not.

[Masai Ujiri]

kevin love is arguably a 1st/2nd team all nba player. amir Johnson is not.

This... People get mad at some of us on here for being sentimental about DeRozan, but if Amir Johnson is preventing you from going after Kevin Love, you need to re-evaluate how you're rating the guy.

Amir is a very good role player, Love is a superstar.

[Mediumcore]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Love isn't a better player than Amir, but Love isn't a better fit on this current Raptors roster. For all of Love's talent he hasn't taken Minnesota into the playoffs...ever I think? They have a top 10 pg in Rubio, top 5 PF in Love, a really good 2 way centre in Pek, good supporting cast, but still just a .500 team. He's a good player, but not elite and needs an elite player to play next to in order to suceed (Kobe and the Lakers).

If you were to trade for Love, you would have to restructure the entire Raptors roster which is going backwards. And you would still need a true superstar for him to play next to to be a good team.

[Nilanka]

kevin love is arguably a 1st/2nd team all nba player. amir Johnson is not.

This... People get mad at some of us on here for being sentimental about DeRozan, but if Amir Johnson is preventing you from going after Kevin Love, you need to re-evaluate how you're rating the guy.

Amir is a very good role player, Love is a superstar.

The argument can be made that Amir does things that contribute to winning (that doesn't necessarily show up on the boxscore).

There's no denying that Love is the more talented player, but he may not be the more valuable player.