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  • #61
    We are still missing the superstar.

    I would still prefer it if we had ourselves a solid pick in this years draft.

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    • #62
      Axel wrote: View Post
      CalRapsFan already did the bulk of the heavy lifting in his response (bang on!) so I will just add; how does one develop a franchise without looking to and predicting the future? Building a team isn't a series of one-year plans that start over each May. If it is, then by all means, sign me up for a division banner and playoff push. Reality is that building a contending team takes years of planning, reacting and luck. Plan for the next 3 years (when drafts, free agencies, contract values can be somewhat estimated). React to the ever changing environment as best you can within your overall plan. Get some luck with ping pong balls and injuries.

      So yes, I am using my magic crystal ball to predict that at least some of the top prospects of the super hyped draft will turn out to be good players (isn't dismissing them as unproven dismissing the draft entirely?) and will make their intended impacts. I'm also using the all mighty brain here to see in history that the chances of landing an equally good player while picking in the 20s is quite low. History is fact, no hocus pocus. Two teams on fairly equal footing, one adds a great player, one adds a decent role player: who wins the game next year? And the year after that?

      Since we are in it for the long term, long term ramifications have to be considered. Masai said 5 years, and by missing out on this draft, it will very likely take 5 years to get anywhere. This draft was the chance to strike while the irons hot and make 5 years into 3 years, without any Colangelo "accelerated rebuild" BS.
      But, that also isn't to say that there aren't other avenues MU can take going forward, to get to the same destination.

      It's just more of the same crap being flung at the pro-tankers. I never said that the Raptors would tank, just that I personally felt that starting a rebuild before this season started could have been a good long-term team-building strategy (which some people would call tanking).

      Are the Raptors tanking? Obviously not.

      Could the Raptors decide to tank from here on out? Highly doubtful, and likely unsuccessfully even if they did.

      Is some degree of rebuilding/retooling necessary/possible even without tanking this season? Of course. It never was a black-and-white discussion.

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      • #63
        p00ka wrote: View Post
        Huh? Let me see.

        - capped out: it's certain that they aren't
        - mature roster: it's certain that they aren't
        - 50 win ceiling: referencing the "ceiling" chatter, which is certainly what I was talking about

        Dude, rather confusing response how that statement even remotely compares to the ceiling and teams leap-frogging certainty I'm referring to. Huh?

        Yup, you're right. NOTHING is conclusive. Thought that was significant point of my post. *confused*
        Who said anything about being capped out?

        Let's boil this down to the lowest common denominator: do you believe that Kyle Lowry will maintain this level of play for the next 3 years?

        I don't. So my opinion and position is based on the fact that Kyle Lowry at anything less than this current level of play drops this team. He is carrying the team right now. He is the motor. Demar is playing well, but Demar can't run an offence or even the pick and roll. Without KL playing at a high level, this offence stalls completely. If we resign him, then we will be looking to trade him by year 2 of the deal.
        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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        • #64
          p00ka wrote: View Post
          Thanks for the rant about the kind of things that long term planning entails, but I didn't need it, and it doesn't address my point at all. The considerations needed for planning lend zero credibility to your crystal ball gazing I spoke to.

          Beyond that, so your response is that you believe tanking for this year's draft is/was the answer. Who knew? Still does zip to land any credibility to your crystal ball.

          Really, that's quite a rant, but is devoid of any credible rebuttal to my points.
          What exactly is your point?

          What is one thing you've stated about the future of this franchise that is any less of a crystal ball gazing exercise?

          Everything any of us say about what we think the future might hold for the Raptors is pure conjecture. Please quit taking this condescending approach of downplaying other opinions that are formed the same way yours are.

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          • #65
            Ceiling in today's NBA is determined by franchise talent, except in rare cases like the 2004 Pistons.

            As for predicting individual ceilings, Val is the only player who might be a franchise talent.

            Demar doesn't have the handles or creativity to be a lead wing on a championship squad.

            Ross is 3 and D and dunk guy, a great role player.

            Amir is a great role player.

            Lowry could be an all-star but is also playing for a contract.

            Come playoff time, how is this motley crew going to win four playoff rounds?

            I like our guys and respect their tenacity but there's a reason Grantland just put us in the "Fool's Gold Diggers" category.

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            • #66
              Axel, please, this is going nowhere when the discussion runs off in multiple directions away from the original point. It's either purposeful, or you're not grasping what I was saying. You feel you're a master of predictions. I feel I know you're not. Nowhere to go from here. We're both right, in our own minds. Let's leave it at that.

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              • #67
                p00ka wrote: View Post
                Thanks for the rant about the kind of things that long term planning entails, but I didn't need it, and it doesn't address my point at all. The considerations needed for planning lend zero credibility to your crystal ball gazing I spoke to.

                Beyond that, so your response is that you believe tanking for this year's draft is/was the answer. Who knew? Still does zip to land any credibility to your crystal ball.

                Really, that's quite a rant, but is devoid of any credible rebuttal to my points.
                Another great discussion pooka. Thanks
                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                Comment


                • #68
                  CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                  What exactly is your point?

                  What is one thing you've stated about the future of this franchise that is any less of a crystal ball gazing exercise?

                  Everything any of us say about what we think the future might hold for the Raptors is pure conjecture. Please quit taking this condescending approach of downplaying other opinions that are formed the same way yours are.
                  You've mistaken me for someone else. I don't make such predictions of ceilings and what teams are suddenly going to surpass another team. To me, that's a fool's game, and pointed out some factors as to why I think so.

                  Man for a mod, you say some pretty baseless demeaning things. I have NOT been condescending in this discussion (though that's starting to get really difficult to avoid), and most certainly not about my opinions on the subject matter. Opinions that seem to only exist in your imagination.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Axel wrote: View Post
                    Another great discussion pooka. Thanks
                    CRF, now that's being condescendingly sarcastic. Can I lay it on now?

                    Tell you what Axel. If you need help keeping track of what the conversation is, and keeping focused on it, I'm not your babysitter. But if you want to trade one-liner jabs, I'm very game if the mods will let me.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      p00ka wrote: View Post
                      You've mistaken me for someone else. I don't make such predictions of ceilings and what teams are suddenly going to surpass another team. To me, that's a fool's game, and pointed out some factors as to why I think so.

                      Man for a mod, you say some pretty baseless demeaning things. I have NOT been condescending in this discussion (though that's starting to get really difficult to avoid), and most certainly not about my opinions on the subject matter. Opinions that seem to only exist in your imagination.
                      A poster presented an opinion about his thoughts for the future and you came back with your "baseless crystal ball gazing" comment. It's not like he was stating his prediction as some guaranteed fact. It was clearly an individual opinion.

                      Your comments back to him imply that you disagree with his opinion about the future, which is no more factual than his opinion. Just by disagreeing with his opinion, aren't you doing the same amount of "baseless crystal ball gazing"?

                      Given that everything said on here by all of us is 99% opinion-based, replying with your dismissive crystal ball remark, without adding anything constructive (ie: explaining why you disagree, perhaps?), seemed condescending to me... as a fellow poster.
                      Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jan 9, 2014, 07:12 PM.

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                      • #71
                        I don't like that this thread has devolved into everyone talking about their balls, crystal or not.

                        #justjokes

                        #allwevegotareopinions
                        "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                        • #72
                          p00ka wrote: View Post
                          CRF, now that's being condescendingly sarcastic. Can I lay it on now?

                          Tell you what Axel. If you need help keeping track of what the conversation is, and keeping focused on it, I'm not your babysitter. But if you want to trade one-liner jabs, I'm very game if the mods will let me.
                          Topic: Tank over?
                          Response: probably yes but doesn't have to be. Still best option.
                          Justification: Unavailable due to restrictions on not posting anything related to the future or current player assessments.

                          Concise enough?
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Axel wrote: View Post
                            Topic: Tank over?
                            Response: probably yes but doesn't have to be. Still best option.
                            Justification: Unavailable due to restrictions on not posting anything related to the future or current player assessments.

                            Concise enough?
                            You saw what I wrote to p00ka about being condescending, that goes both ways.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              p00ka wrote: View Post
                              CRF, now that's being condescendingly sarcastic. Can I lay it on now?

                              Tell you what Axel. If you need help keeping track of what the conversation is, and keeping focused on it, I'm not your babysitter. But if you want to trade one-liner jabs, I'm very game if the mods will let me.
                              NO.

                              p00ka I'm gonna be honest with you here, you are coming off as condescending in tone man. If you don't agree with Axel or CRF or anyone else for that matter leave it at that man. Leave all the conjecture out (in regards to other posters opinions/posts). Like S.R. hashtags...all we got are opinions.

                              Ohh and screw tanking.

                              Edit: same goes for you Axel leave the condescending tone out. Thank you.

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                              • #75
                                Wow, must shut up. You're both right, I'm wrong, I'm sorry. Have a nice day y'all. Go Raps!!

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