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  • #16
    Marz wrote: View Post
    You pretty much nailed the alternative. Ujiri threw big bucks at Nene, and later traded him. Presumably so he wouldn't lose an asset, but I still maintain that the contract he gave him was atrocious.
    The theory offered is that Masai while not enamored at the asking price also did not want to lose an asset for zilch as you noted. I would assume that Nene had received other offers and MU may/would have been aware of the competition and took the risk in signing him aware that he could flip Nene for another asset. Who knows maybe the Wizards may have been one of the teams competing for Nene with whom Masai traded with for McGee (conjecture). My point is if MU had an accurate feel for the market value (other offers) then the odds were that he could do another deal later.

    Now trading for McGee is the real head scratcher for me. But it was a 3 team trade (Clippers) which also netted Turiaf for Denver.

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    • #17
      chch166 wrote: View Post
      I wouldn't call him a star
      Career wise? Nope.

      Over the last five weeks? Gotta at least think about it...
      "Stop eating your sushi."
      "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
      "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
      - Jack Armstrong

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      • #18
        A bit off topic...I hear that Jrue Holiday (Pelicans) fractured his/a shin. It's amazing how many pgs are getting injured.

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        • #19
          Lowry has to keep his health in order to be a top-5 PG this year. Everyone else is dropping like flies.
          The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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          • #20
            chch166 wrote: View Post
            I wouldn't call him a star
            Like someone said, 'not career-wise', but he's certainly playing like a star lately.

            So whats the word on KL? Does he even want to stay?

            And why does he even want out? I would think the winning streak thats got all the Raps saying "we can play with anyone" plus his obvious importance to the team AND his career-high numbers...he's the established leader of the team, he's in for a big pay raise, he's in All-star AND MVP talks.....why would he or anyone in that situation want out?

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            • #21
              I really think it would be foolish to overpay for Lowry. He is now in his 9th season and has never performed better than a league-average point guard until the past two months. He is in a contract year and that is what's motivating his current level of intensity and fitness, imo. I watched him last year when he looked out of shape and disinterested defensively. Opposing point guards got into the paint at will. I am skeptical that he has overcome his attitude issues that many say led to his departure from Houston and Memphis.

              The raps will need an additional piece to be a contender in the east after this season, once teams like philly, boston, and chicago have completed their one-year rebuild and are playing to win again. Signing Lowry to a big money 3+ year deal cripples the ability to go after such a guy. Even if we couldn't attract a nice piece through free agency, without lowry our draft picks become more valuable (top 10 range), whereas with him we are looking at 13-16 most likely. Personally, I am fine letting our core develop another year or two, and adding more value through the draft (or via trade).

              There are several average point guards in the nba, who are younger, hungrier and cheaper than lowry will be after this season. Mario Chalmers, Brandon Knight, Avery Bradley, Patrick Beverley, Reggie Jackson, Dennis Schroeder, CJ McColum, and Tony Wroten, all come to mind. Even Cory Joseph would be interesting. There are also a number of veterans who could possibly fill in (Jarrett Jack, JJ Barea, Pablo Prigioni). We have Vazquez on the roster, who's serviceable. I simply don't see why we need to lockup a hot and cold point guard, approaching 30, with so many options available.

              Anything more than two years is foolish imo, and may become very difficult to trade if he doesn't pan out.

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              • #22
                he has played himself into the 9 to 11 million dollar range. Is that a number we are willing to swallow. Also 2Pat is going to take between 6 and 8 to lock down.
                For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                • #23
                  umop apisdn wrote: View Post
                  I really think it would be foolish to overpay for Lowry. He is now in his 9th season and has never performed better than a league-average point guard until the past two months. He is in a contract year and that is what's motivating his current level of intensity and fitness, imo. I watched him last year when he looked out of shape and disinterested defensively. Opposing point guards got into the paint at will. I am skeptical that he has overcome his attitude issues that many say led to his departure from Houston and Memphis.

                  The raps will need an additional piece to be a contender in the east after this season, once teams like philly, boston, and chicago have completed their one-year rebuild and are playing to win again. Signing Lowry to a big money 3+ year deal cripples the ability to go after such a guy. Even if we couldn't attract a nice piece through free agency, without lowry our draft picks become more valuable (top 10 range), whereas with him we are looking at 13-16 most likely. Personally, I am fine letting our core develop another year or two, and adding more value through the draft (or via trade).

                  There are several average point guards in the nba, who are younger, hungrier and cheaper than lowry will be after this season. Mario Chalmers, Brandon Knight, Avery Bradley, Patrick Beverley, Reggie Jackson, Dennis Schroeder, CJ McColum, and Tony Wroten, all come to mind. Even Cory Joseph would be interesting. There are also a number of veterans who could possibly fill in (Jarrett Jack, JJ Barea, Pablo Prigioni). We have Vazquez on the roster, who's serviceable. I simply don't see why we need to lockup a hot and cold point guard, approaching 30, with so many options available.

                  Anything more than two years is foolish imo, and may become very difficult to trade if he doesn't pan out.
                  In his time here I don't think his attitude has been an issue. I like your plan of building around this core but I consider Lowry to be an important part of that core.

                  There was nothing wrong with his attitude last year. He started like gangbusters, then got injured and by the time he got back, the team was in shambles and Calderon was doing too good a job to be benched so he shared the position with him until Calderon was traded. Bottom line, he never had a chance to settle in and he never had a well defined role. Last years team was a joke and it was near impossible for anyone to shine.

                  Now Lowry finally has a clearly defined role and he is playing amazing. Maybe he's a lazy bum and will stop trying when he signs his new contract but he doesn't really seem like the type to me. He looks to me to be the kind of guy who plays hard every night will do anything including sacrifice his body to win. A guy that takes charges like that all the time - is that really the kind of guy who turns into a slacker the minute his contract is signed? Maybe, but I doubt it. Maybe he had attitude problems in the past, I really don't know too much about that. People do change though, maybe he just had some growing up to do?

                  I'm a believer and want him signed. There are risks attached to pretty much every decision the team makes but I think he's worth rolling the dice on.

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                  • #24
                    thead wrote: View Post
                    he has played himself into the 9 to 11 million dollar range. Is that a number we are willing to swallow. Also 2Pat is going to take between 6 and 8 to lock down.
                    I think Lowry will get around $9 million per year. $6M to $8M for 2Pat sounds way too high. I expect something more around what Hansbrough got, maybe a little more.

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                    • #25
                      Lowry .... to Trade or Not

                      The real question when discussing Lowry is .... Does Lowry want to stay here. Or would he rather play in the States, and for a potential Contender. He'll get his money ... here, or somewhere else.

                      IMO ... Raps should entertain the trade option just before the trading deadline. I'd want more then a non-lottery draft pick (for 2014 or 2015). Could be protected in the top 8 or so. I'd also like a young player (back) with some upside, possibly one who's buried behind a Star. Raps could balance the trade with a useful Role player from our Roster.

                      I recognize that the East is a weak division, but I think we're getting ahead of ourselves about this season (and play-offs). One game over 500 meant nothing a few years ago. It still does. If Chicago can get back a healthy Rose next season - who knows there - then you have 3 teams minimum, that Toronto can't expect to pass in a play-off round. That doesn't count Boston, who will have two 1st Round draft picks in 2014 (theirs + the lesser of Atlanta/Brooklyn), and will be looking to ramp up their skill level with trades (for some of their excess draft picks - 9 - 1st picks in the next 5 drafts), along with cap space to sign a Star.

                      Bottom line ... Lowry's value is peaking right now.
                      .
                      Last edited by RapthoseLeafs; Sun Jan 12, 2014, 07:18 PM.

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                      • #26
                        RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                        The real question when discussing Lowry is .... Does Lowry want to stay here. Or would he rather play in the States, and for a potential Contender. He'll get his money ... here, or somewhere else.

                        IMO ... Raps should entertain the trade option just before the trading deadline. I'd want more then a non-lottery draft pick (for 2014 or 2015). Could be protected in the top 8 or so. I'd also like a young player (back) with some upside, possibly one who's buried behind a Star. Raps could balance the trade with a useful Role player from our Roster.

                        I recognize that the East is a weak division, but I think we're getting ahead of ourselves about this season (and play-offs). One game over 500 meant nothing a few years ago. It still does. If Chicago can get back a healthy Rose next season - who knows there - then you have 3 teams minimum, that Toronto can't expect to pass in a play-off round. That doesn't count Boston, who will have two 1st Round draft picks in 2014 (theirs + the lesser of Atlanta/Brooklyn), and will be looking to ramp up their skill level with trades (for some of their excess draft picks - 9 - 1st picks in the next 5 drafts), along with cap space to sign a Star.

                        Bottom line ... Lowry's value is peaking right now.
                        .
                        He's expiring contract, no one will give away first round draft picks or good young players, simple as that, unless BC would be running another NBA team. The thing is you cannot really get something worth the trade. This is why... It's better to let him perform and try to extend him on reasonable contract, THEN if the contract is reasonable and he keeps performing, and if you are really desperate you can trade him and get something special back. Even if he does not perform as well as now, there won't be any issues with trading him as Masai already proven he can get rid of any garbage contract. Which better PG can we sign right now? There are no, so just lets sit and watch this team as it is right now.
                        Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

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                        • #27
                          avocado wrote: View Post
                          I'm a believer and want him signed. There are risks attached to pretty much every decision the team makes but I think he's worth rolling the dice on.
                          It's a bad gamble in my opinion- little upside, huge downside. Best case scenario, he continues playing at his current level and the raptors top out at a middle of the pack east playoff team, no chance to compete with ind/mia, and little means of the improvement. Worst case, and the much more likely one since Lowry has no track record of sustained success in 9 years as a pro, is that he regresses back to his mean performance, and we're stuck with an aging, untradeable 10 mil/year player who kills our cap flexibility and makes us just good enough to avoid getting any good picks in the draft.

                          The raps need to play the assets game- sign cheap players and develop them, get good draft picks, and maintain cap flexibility so we can take on other teams' bloated contracts along with an asset or two as payment. This is the only way to increase the talent level on our team.

                          thead wrote: View Post
                          he has played himself into the 9 to 11 million dollar range. Is that a number we are willing to swallow.
                          It's not only money, but years. I wouldn't pay more than 8 mil, but I also wouldn't sign for longer than two. The longer contract, the harder it is to trade.

                          RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                          The real question when discussing Lowry is .... Does Lowry want to stay here. Or would he rather play in the States, and for a potential Contender. He'll get his money ... here, or somewhere else.
                          Lowry will not be able to maximize his value with a contender. Name me a contender who has the cap space to sign him and doesn't already have a better option at PG. On the other hand, rebuilding teams don't want him, because they're rebuilding and would rather develop young guys. The league is pretty deep in PGs. To be honest, its hard to find any team that would be willing to give him 3yr/30mil. NY, DET or LA maybe? If I was Toronto, I'd play hardball and see if he could get anyone to give him something better than 2yr/16mil.

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                          • #28
                            My preference would be a short contract.. but if Lowry wants a 4 year deal maybe the contract should be structured such that it starts large and ends small.. maybe 4 years / $34M but the contract starts at $10M and ends at $7M decreasing by $1M every year. I would also prefer a team option in that 4th year. They could throw in a trade kicker (to offset the Canadian taxes).

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                            • #29
                              umop apisdn wrote: View Post
                              It's a bad gamble in my opinion- little upside, huge downside. Best case scenario, he continues playing at his current level and the raptors top out at a middle of the pack east playoff team, no chance to compete with ind/mia, and little means of the improvement. Worst case, and the much more likely one since Lowry has no track record of sustained success in 9 years as a pro, is that he regresses back to his mean performance, and we're stuck with an aging, untradeable 10 mil/year player who kills our cap flexibility and makes us just good enough to avoid getting any good picks in the draft.

                              The raps need to play the assets game- sign cheap players and develop them, get good draft picks, and maintain cap flexibility so we can take on other teams' bloated contracts along with an asset or two as payment. This is the only way to increase the talent level on our team.



                              It's not only money, but years. I wouldn't pay more than 8 mil, but I also wouldn't sign for longer than two. The longer contract, the harder it is to trade.



                              Lowry will not be able to maximize his value with a contender. Name me a contender who has the cap space to sign him and doesn't already have a better option at PG. On the other hand, rebuilding teams don't want him, because they're rebuilding and would rather develop young guys. The league is pretty deep in PGs. To be honest, its hard to find any team that would be willing to give him 3yr/30mil. NY, DET or LA maybe? If I was Toronto, I'd play hardball and see if he could get anyone to give him something better than 2yr/16mil.
                              If Lowry keeps up his current level of play, how does this translate into the rest of team not being able to improve significantly? JV is likely to improve a ton over the next few years, that alone would make the team better. Ross is another place where we could see significant improvement. There is always the possibility of a trade etc.

                              Maybe people aren't giving this team enough credit. I know it's only been a short period of time where they have played so well, but who's to say they can't keep it up? If it is true that they "can't compete" with Miami and Indiana at the moment, they don't look be all that far away.

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                              • #30
                                avocado wrote: View Post
                                If Lowry keeps up his current level of play, how does this translate into the rest of team not being able to improve significantly?
                                How do you accumulate assets when you are capped out and drafting near the bottom of or outside the lottery? Yes, you could rely on internal development but that is limiting your options. Nobody knows what JV or Ross may become, or whether they are already close to reaching their potential. Every team has young guys they hope will develop into superstars. The key is to play the odds and give yourself the most chances to win.

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