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SN: "Vince Carter: The re-imagination of VC"

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  • #76
    I might be able to tolerate a popcorn & pizza combo named after him....

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    • #77
      Fully wrote: View Post
      This is just way too over the top for the subject at hand.

      You're trying to equate real, soul crippling hatred with a bunch of fans who don't want to see his jersey retired, or are rolling their eyes at the premise of a TV special honouring a player who they believe quit on their team and city.

      I remember a lot of the VC era fondly. The rookie of the year season where it seemed like he was single handedly putting the Raptors on the NBA map. Watching the dunk contest with my high school basketball team and all of us losing our minds. The week where he hit road buzzer beaters against Boston and the Clippers as the Raptors enjoyed tangible success for the first time in their history....

      But I also remember how his departure played out and it wasn't flattering for him in the least. Terrible body language. Uninspired play (look at his stats before and after the trade). The running joke around the league that Vince was faking injuries every night. Constant rumours about demands from the organization - trade and otherwise. Was my perception skewed at the time by a media force that was motivated to tear him down? It's possible, but I sure remember it as a guy who was blatantly trying to force his way out of town.

      I choose to take both sides into account when I form my opinion on him. I recognize that he did a lot for the franchise and helped them gain traction for the first time in their history but he also set them back considerably by the nature in which he left. That, my friend, is perspective; looking at the entire picture and forming an opinion. Absolving him of any wrong doing by pinning the blame on the media or the fans themselves because they pressured him too much is just as shortsighted as those who blindly hate the man, it's just on the opposite side so you feel like you're more noble doing so.

      At the end of the day I don't want to see his jersey retired. I think we should save that privilege for someone who has truly earned it, not just because we're desperate to do it after 20 years and VC seems like the best option we have. But am I losing sleep, thinking about it every day or actively hating the man? No.
      hey there.

      I can see what youre saying, however it reads different, well it must, i am not too riled up. I often wish we could have a giant skype discussion on things like this.

      I respect what you guys are saying Fully, Apollo...etc. But I think you are speaking on more of a surface angle and I am looking at it from more of a real life scenario. Its fun to hat eon athletes, I do it ALL the time. Its just when push come sto shove, and we are talking for real about a person, a human being, I think to Hate an athlete for something like that, after years, after apologies..... well it just crosses healthy lines of logic.

      Know what I mean.

      Anyhow guys. Been stressing lately, lost the woman of my dreams recently.... so I apologize if I offended anyone. I can say things nicer.

      Comment


      • #78
        JawsGT wrote: View Post
        Bold: exactly.

        And I don't agree with the booing either. But neither do I wish to see his jersey hanging from the rafters. You know, I have never seen a Raps game in person, but I expect I'm going to make that happen next season, if not this one. And when I do get to the ACC, I do not want to see any indication of this franchise honoring his time here.
        Y abut I neve rsaid a word about his jersey being retired.... i just dont hate the guy, dont think anyone should. But retiring a jersey.... people shouldnt even bring that word up unless the player in question won a Championship with the team.

        Shit, Carter didnt even get to the third round.

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        • #79
          Are fans wrong to be booing LeBron in Cleveland? Or Carmelo in Denver? Of course not.

          If VC did what he 'did' at the end of his tenure on 'ANY' team, fans would react the same way. It's hard to forget, even when forgiveness is granted.

          My suggestion: The issue shouldn't be about the city of Toronto; the city has passionate fans. VC knows this. If VC is "truly bothered" by the booing, and his 'legacy', and he wants the booing to ease up, he needs to check his ego and call his agent. That call should be short and sweet (find a way to get back on the Raptors roster; coming off of the bench of course). If he finds his way back on to the roster he needs to do so knowing the negative attention he'll be subjected to. But in facing the music, he is given a final chance to redeem himself on some level to a large amount of fans. He'll have the chance to be the hardest working player off the bench. He'll have the chance to be the most active player in the community; to start countless basketball camps like the ones Tristan Thompson and others attended. VC is intelligent, and he knows these scripted TV interviews can come across the wrong way. And as an intelligent man, he needs to look in the mirror and realize that while intimidating to head "home" after all the "hurt" he specifically caused, he still has a chance to let his actions speak louder than words... Fans will cheer for hardwork... The ball is in VC's court.

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          • #80
            gametime wrote: View Post
            Are fans wrong to be booing LeBron in Cleveland? Or Carmelo in Denver? Of course not.

            If VC did what he 'did' at the end of his tenure on 'ANY' team, fans would react the same way. It's hard to forget, even when forgiveness is granted.

            My suggestion: The issue shouldn't be about the city of Toronto; the city has passionate fans. VC knows this. If VC is "truly bothered" by the booing, and his 'legacy', and he wants the booing to ease up, he needs to check his ego and call his agent. That call should be short and sweet (find a way to get back on the Raptors roster; coming off of the bench of course). If he finds his way back on to the roster he needs to do so knowing the negative attention he'll be subjected to. But in facing the music, he is given a final chance to redeem himself on some level to a large amount of fans. He'll have the chance to be the hardest working player off the bench. He'll have the chance to be the most active player in the community; to start countless basketball camps like the ones Tristan Thompson and others attended. VC is intelligent, and he knows these scripted TV interviews can come across the wrong way. And as an intelligent man, he needs to look in the mirror and realize that while intimidating to head "home" after all the "hurt" he specifically caused, he still has a chance to let his actions speak louder than words... Fans will cheer for hardwork... The ball is in VC's court.
            Do you really think fans and media wouldn't see through such a blatant, self-serving PR move?

            Such a move would not benefit the Raptors team/franchise in any way, other than to possibly garner some increased media attention. It reeks of a selfish, desperate, calculated move, designed to stuff skeletons back into closets and usher in a fairy tale ending to a single player's career (not to mention hoping it increases the chances of being honored individually through potential jersey retirement and HOF consideration) - the prodigal son returns... ick!

            If the past is the past, with the idea of forgiving, forgetting and moving on, this would be an awful move on the franchise's part. It would open old wounds and only really serve a single player in the twilight of his career - an ironic twist, given the biggest complaint about VC was always his ego and constantly putting himself ahead of his team.

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            • #81
              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              It would open old wounds and only really serve a single player in the twilight of his career - an ironic twist, given the biggest complaint about VC was always his ego and constantly putting himself ahead of his team.
              Good points. I was in my early 20's when VC was dealt for peanuts to the Nets. I remember how infuriating it was to watch him quit on the team, and than for the franchise to be set back, both reputation & asset wise. I don't think his jersey should be retired (and I was a jersey wearing supporter of Vince).
              - But your last sentence is an interesting one, regarding VC's "ego and constantly putting himself ahead of his team"

              My view on that is he has all the means to let his actions (no more words), but actions, show people he's "matured" and is ready to face the music for quitting on the team (that lowered both his and the team's value)
              - So either he can continue feeding his self serving ego with tv segments, crossing his fingers it's enough for the new MLSE owners to honour him in some fashion; or he can look in the mirror, realize that nothing worthwhile comes easy and that it will be hard to return to the Raptors roster as a bench player, but accept it and put in the work every day (on and off the court), allowing the chips to fall as they may, but allowing himself to one day retire knowing he made the effort for his teammates and in the community (which will not be enough for many, but to some, it will restore at least 'some' level of respect to the person that was the ultimate face of the franchise).

              ...And for what it's worth, I do think MLSE is planning to capitalize on opening up "old wounds" (as you said) as part of the re-branding strategy...

              Comment


              • #82
                can someone explain to me why vince should have his jersy retired in toronto? no championships and asked to leave the franchise.

                while he was here was I not entertained, yes I was but is that enough.

                Comment


                • #83
                  gametime wrote: View Post
                  Good points. I was in my early 20's when VC was dealt for peanuts to the Nets. I remember how infuriating it was to watch him quit on the team, and than for the franchise to be set back, both reputation & asset wise. I don't think his jersey should be retired (and I was a jersey wearing supporter of Vince).
                  - But your last sentence is an interesting one, regarding VC's "ego and constantly putting himself ahead of his team"

                  My view on that is he has all the means to let his actions (no more words), but actions, show people he's "matured" and is ready to face the music for quitting on the team (that lowered both his and the team's value)
                  - So either he can continue feeding his self serving ego with tv segments, crossing his fingers it's enough for the new MLSE owners to honour him in some fashion; or he can look in the mirror, realize that nothing worthwhile comes easy and that it will be hard to return to the Raptors roster as a bench player, but accept it and put in the work every day (on and off the court), allowing the chips to fall as they may, but allowing himself to one day retire knowing he made the effort for his teammates and in the community (which will not be enough for many, but to some, it will restore at least 'some' level of respect to the person that was the ultimate face of the franchise).

                  ...And for what it's worth, I do think MLSE is planning to capitalize on opening up "old wounds" (as you said) as part of the re-branding strategy...
                  I get what you're saying with regards to his actions of coming back to Toronto, but I still see no basketball-related reason why Toronto would want him back. No matter how either side spins it, any reunion between the Raptors and VC will be purely out of PR motivation. As a fan who let the past go a long time ago, any overture made by VC would be met with a "thanks, but no thanks" response (if I were MU).

                  As to the bold, I certainly hope you are wrong. How does digging up a controversial past and opening old wounds link to a re-branding? Re-branding is all about looking ahead to a better future, not regurgitating a pathetic past. VC represents the highest highs and the lowest lows of Raptors basketball over the first 20 years of the franchise's existence. As both a fan and a marketer with a decade of brand management experience, reintroducing VC into the Raptors 'family' would completely overshadow and undermine a re-branding strategy. It just seems entirely counter-intuitive, given the way he left and the overwhelming sentiment expressed by fans since.
                  Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jan 21, 2014, 07:13 PM.

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                  • #84
                    We're actually speaking the same language, definitely agree, and I'm not saying MLSE allowing VC back into all the headlines is "right" (including how much Drake has been pumping him up)... Far from it... BUT I do think it's part of the first waves before the re-brand is fully launched... I can see MLSE revisiting the hardships of the past, they're going to put people back into a painful mindset, and talk about rising from the ashes, us against the world, etc... (like you, I won't be applauding that route should it come to fruition, as I'd rather freshness)

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Craig wrote: View Post
                      yes, it is childish, and unfair.

                      hpw people cant separate real life from entertainment is beyond me.

                      What another person makes, has zero to do with you. Get over it. its not a point of contention.

                      Most people behave as if the shit they have done in their own lives has been perfect.

                      Perhaps none of you have made any mistakes.... great, but I would imagine none of you have done anything of any real value or interests to the general population either.... so really, nobody gives a shit.

                      You guys speak as though somehow you have been personally offended, which to me is hilarious, because you are so far away from the actual issue, nothing matters.... you just think it does in your own sad little worlds.

                      Sp hey man, yeah, HATE away. Hate that anpother man makes so much cash for what he does. hate that he doesnt kick ass for the SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT product you choose to worship.... hate it all. Totally cool, totally stable and rational. Ima just stay over here in " it doesnt affectmesville" and be happy. It takes a bit more than some underachieving athlete to get me gooing nowadays, and for ANY individual out there doing his thing, I tend to thin kits all good. Live and let live, save you stupid as fuck judgments for yourself, in the end, you will likely see just how ridiculous it all is.

                      Have fun hating guys.... see where it gets ya in the end.
                      In general I agree with your live and let live attitude, and I don't really hold any bad feelings towards VC and would even welcome him back, but seriously, you come across as a judgemental a-hole.

                      Just because you think no one should be angry at VC for quitting on the team doesn't mean everyone must or even should think the same. Your thoughts and ideas are just that - your own. Not everyone is like you, and just because some don't believe VC should be re-acquired, honoured or let off the hook, doesn't mean they're pathetic or childish, it just means they have an opinion.

                      Assuming these guys are aren't stable because they still don't like Carter is completely irrational, it just shows that their memory is a little bit longer than yours or mine and if they aren't as quick to let things go, so be it. You don't have to be smug about it.

                      "Have fun hating.... see where it gets ya in the end."

                      Your whole holier-than-thou approach isn't only annoying, it shows an extreme level of arrogance on your part.


                      -----

                      I was about 18 when Carter was traded, and I was super pissed... but at this point I don't really care any more and I think it might be cool to see him in a raps uniform, if only for nostalgia's sake.
                      Last edited by AJ360; Tue Jan 21, 2014, 07:32 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        gametime wrote: View Post
                        We're actually speaking the same language, definitely agree, and I'm not saying MLSE allowing VC back into all the headlines is "right" (including how much Drake has been pumping him up)... Far from it... BUT I do think it's part of the first waves before the re-brand is fully launched... I can see MLSE revisiting the hardships of the past, they're going to put people back into a painful mindset, and talk about rising from the ashes, us against the world, etc... (like you, I won't be applauding that route should it come to fruition, as I'd rather freshness)
                        There's nothing at all wrong with remembering all the good things he did with/for the franchise, or reliving the good times. It's all part of the Raptors' history and nothing will ever tarnish the positives associated with VC (ie: winning the dunk contest and putting Toronto on the global NBA map, or leading the Raptors to game 7 and just one bounce away from the EC finals).

                        The idea of bringing him personally back into the fold is what I have an issue with. Remember and celebrate the franchise's past, but just leave VC there.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Meh, this isn't even an argument, you can find 1000 articles both clinical and anecdotal who's topic is fanaticism, or sports fan who take it too far.

                          Arrogant?
                          Holier than thou?

                          You man, you need to grow up a bit. I didn't just offer that stuff, i was pushed nicely by a guy and I fired back. You can call me names, you can do your best, in the end I'm not even close to wrong, and I am not really worried if you believe I am.

                          And I will reiterate, hate all you like, see where that approach gets you in life... its dysfunctional and immature.

                          Children, little kids do that.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Just curious, can someone mention why this sudden swell of interest in Wince? Grange has written a big piece on his rehabiliation, I think Smith has a piece in the Star and something about Drake pushing the agenda I hear. I know he is in town with the Mavs but surely this all doesnt have anything to do with pumping up the game is it?

                            Doesnt he get booed each time he comes to town. Personally I'd rather give the silent treatment of disinterest than participate in throat clearing So, how does rejection by the paying members at the ACC translate into a concerted effort by our scribes to go to bat for VC. Strange.

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                            • #89
                              I think they would love to cover that story if it happened Bendit, because really, it would be a HUGE one. I'd love it. I like that kind of thing.

                              The fact that you can see it being manufactured is a little sad, because clearly something is up.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Craig wrote: View Post
                                Meh, this isn't even an argument, you can find 1000 articles both clinical and anecdotal who's topic is fanaticism, or sports fan who take it too far.

                                Arrogant?
                                Holier than thou?

                                You man, you need to grow up a bit. I didn't just offer that stuff, i was pushed nicely by a guy and I fired back. You can call me names, you can do your best, in the end I'm not even close to wrong, and I am not really worried if you believe I am.

                                And I will reiterate, hate all you like, see where that approach gets you in life... its dysfunctional and immature.

                                Children, little kids do that.
                                I think the bigger concern (at least for me) is the implication that any sort of anti-VC opinion is "hate".

                                I objectively review the facts and come to the personal conclusion that I would prefer VC to have no future association with the Toronto Raptors franchise.

                                Having that opinion does not mean I "hate" VC, therefore my opinion is not the least bit immature or dysfunctional, according to the subjective logic you've been applying.

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