Should Casey get extended?

[3inthekeon]

This team was built to tank. At the trade deadline, when other GM's were trading away assets for stretch run/playoff pieces, Masai gave up Austin Daye.

Hollins does not believe in analytics, and was pissed that Gay was traded. I guarantee he will not coach here unless we dump Ujiri and rehire Babcock.

[OldSkoolCool]

Casey has done ok this season. I think the turnaround has been more about roster change and assistant coaching change than it has been about Casey. He has some glaring holes that have caused worry among a lot of people

This leads to 2 things we know about Casey

1) he isn't a bad coach, but isn't a Top Tier coach either.

2) no point in replacing him unless Top Tier coach is found

[Raptorsnz]

Casey trying to mimic Spoelstra's strategy of only bringing in Mike Miller in the playoffs, except with Fields.

[Primer]

Casey has done ok this season. I think the turnaround has been more about roster change and assistant coaching change than it has been about Casey. He has some glaring holes that have caused worry among a lot of people

This leads to 2 things we know about Casey

1) he isn't a bad coach, but isn't a Top Tier coach either.

2) no point in replacing him unless Top Tier coach is found

I'm positive there will be better coaches than Casey available in the off season. I wouldn't even be opposed to Nurse being promoted to head coach. Nurse completely rebuilt our offense away from isos into screen-a-palooza, which is what works in the NBA.
We need someone who can adjust in game. Someone who makes better lineup choices. Someone who knows when to call a timeout. Someone the refs respect (Kidd in his first year gets way more respect than Casey). Someone who could attract players (nobody is itching to leave their team and play for Casey).

If Casey was such a good motivator, it wouldn't have taken a talk from Masai to get Kyle on the right track.

Casey is an OK coach, but he will never be an NBA Championship head coach. Other coaches are too much better than him and will out coach him. We need a coach who gives us an edge over more talented teams, not a coach who drops our talent down to the other teams level.

I'm sure Masai has some candidates lined up. He will probably conduct interviews in the offseason and interview Casey as well, but then ultimately decide to move in a new direction, which is what is best for the team. The same thing happened in Atlanta with Larry Drew. He led them to the playoffs and a great record, but he still got canned by the new GM when his contract was up. Now he's coaching the worst team in the NBA, so you can tell that Ferry got it right firing Drew.

[OldSkoolCool]

I'm positive there will be better coaches than Casey available in the off season. I wouldn't even be opposed to Nurse being promoted to head coach. Nurse completely rebuilt our offense away from isos into screen-a-palooza, which is what works in the NBA.
We need someone who can adjust in game. Someone who makes better lineup choices. Someone who knows when to call a timeout. Someone the refs respect (Kidd in his first year gets way more respect than Casey). Someone who could attract players (nobody is itching to leave their team and play for Casey).

If Casey was such a good motivator, it wouldn't have taken a talk from Masai to get Kyle on the right track.

Ya I'm not a fan of Casey either. Add to this short list his inability to handle rotations or inspire good play out of his guys, he is a confidence killer.

I would like to think Nurse is a Top Tier option. His work with BBL and the DL has been pretty good. Nurse and Bayno are the unsung heroes for this teams turn around for sure.

[stooley]

You may or may not be right, but seem WAY too confident in your assessment.

I'll start by pointing out some issues with your post:

I'm positive there will be better coaches than Casey available in the off season. I wouldn't even be opposed to Nurse being promoted to head coach. Nurse completely rebuilt our offense away from isos into screen-a-palooza, which is what works in the NBA.

1. Who's to say Nurse will be any better at all. He may know how to run an offense, but there's a lot more that goes into running a team! Including managing personnel, and, yes, defense.

We need someone who can adjust in game. Someone who makes better lineup choices. Someone who knows when to call a timeout.

2. Your opinions on Casey's adjustments and lineup choices are definitely valid, but I've said this a million times before: there's so much more that goes into lineup choices in the regular season beyond just the obvious attempts to win a single game. A system where players know there roles, are accountable for themselves and for the team, are able to develop skillsets, practice hard and eat and rest properly, etc, has to be implemented. For that reason, I think it's a way safer bet, at least from our vantage point to judge Casey on his results, which have been absolutely superb and far exceeded expectations on every front

Someone the refs respect (Kidd in his first year gets way more respect than Casey).

3. I'm not necessarily sure Kidd gets any more respect than Casey at all. His players certainly do. But even if that were true, Jason Kidd is a HoF PG with a championship pedigree. I'd imagine he'd get more respect than Ollie, Brad Stevens or Nick Nurse!

Someone who could attract players (nobody is itching to leave their team and play for Casey).

4. There aren't very many coaches that can outright attract players. Doc, Thibs and Pop and mayyyybe Carlisle are the only ones I'd be confident in saying could do a better job at this than Casey.

Casey is an OK coach, but he will never be an NBA Championship head coach. Other coaches are too much better than him and will out coach him. We need a coach who gives us an edge over more talented teams, not a coach who drops our talent down to the other teams level.

5. Very few coaches will ever be a championship coach, and again, the list of coaches that can elevate a playoff team to contender status is very, very short. Would Spoelstra be considered a good coach if he didn't have the luxury of directing multiple HoFers?

6. Casey actually did make some effective changes going into game 2 and outcoached Kidd imo

I'm sure Masai has some candidates lined up. He will probably conduct interviews in the offseason and interview Casey as well, but then ultimately decide to move in a new direction, which is what is best for the team. The same thing happened in Atlanta with Larry Drew. He led them to the playoffs and a great record, but he still got canned by the new GM when his contract was up. Now he's coaching the worst team in the NBA, so you can tell that Ferry got it right firing Drew.

So now that that's out of the way, I want to point out that Casey is actually a pretty good coach. I'd like to see you make a list of coaches that you believe would make us a definitively better team, I think it would be pretty short.

Finally, unless we're getting a clear, definite upgrade, I really don't think it's smart to upheave the franchise with so many young, malleable players. Losing a coach that you relate with, and who's helped you improve isn't usually good for a young player's development.

[stooley]

Ya I'm not a fan of Casey either. Add to this short list his inability to handle rotations or inspire good play out of his guys, he is a confidence killer.

I would like to think Nurse is a Top Tier option. His work with BBL and the DL has been pretty good. Nurse and Bayno are the unsung heroes for this teams turn around for sure.

Every coach relies on their assistants, doesn't mean those assistants would make good head coaches though.

Brian Shaw was widely acclaimed in Indiana, and look at what's happened to the team since he left.

But he's not doing the world's best job in Denver right now either.

edit: And in what world has he not inspired good play out of his guys? Practically every player is having a career/breakout year.

[stooley]

And since I'm going HAM right now.

Remember that when we, as a raptors community, analyze Casey's performance, we're picking at the details way more than we do over any other coach.

Guys like Scott Brooks, Frank Vogel, Spoelstra and Mark Jackson, all very successful coaches, get torn apart by their fans too.

When you watch every game, you probably don't agree with every call, and definitely don't understand why every call is being made, so let's compare Casey against his peers and possible replacements rather than against himself.

[Primer]

You may or may not be right, but seem WAY too confident in your assessment.

I'll start by pointing out some issues with your post:



1. Who's to say Nurse will be any better at all. He may know how to run an offense, but there's a lot more that goes into running a team! Including managing personnel, and, yes, defense.



2. Your opinions on Casey's adjustments and lineup choices are definitely valid, but I've said this a million times before: there's so much more that goes into lineup choices in the regular season beyond just the obvious attempts to win a single game. A system where players know there roles, are accountable for themselves and for the team, are able to develop skillsets, practice hard and eat and rest properly, etc, has to be implemented. For that reason, I think it's a way safer bet, at least from our vantage point to judge Casey on his results, which have been absolutely superb and far exceeded expectations on every front



3. I'm not necessarily sure Kidd gets any more respect than Casey at all. His players certainly do. But even if that were true, Jason Kidd is a HoF PG with a championship pedigree. I'd imagine he'd get more respect than Ollie, Brad Stevens or Nick Nurse!



4. There aren't very many coaches that can outright attract players. Doc, Thibs and Pop and mayyyybe Carlisle are the only ones I'd be confident in saying could do a better job at this than Casey.



5. Very few coaches will ever be a championship coach, and again, the list of coaches that can elevate a playoff team to contender status is very, very short. Would Spoelstra be considered a good coach if he didn't have the luxury of directing multiple HoFers?

6. Casey actually did make some effective changes going into game 2 and outcoached Kidd imo



So now that that's out of the way, I want to point out that Casey is actually a pretty good coach. I'd like to see you make a list of coaches that you believe would make us a definitively better team, I think it would be pretty short.

Finally, unless we're getting a clear, definite upgrade, I really don't think it's smart to upheave the franchise with so many young, malleable players. Losing a coach that you relate with, and who's helped you improve isn't usually good for a young player's development.

This is a pretty damn difficult request to give a fan posting in forums. I have zero familiarity with the assistant coaches in this league outside of Raptors. I also have zero familiarity with the elite coaches in Europe and the D-League. I'd assume the best candidates will come from these pools. For instance, Utah has stated they will interview at least 20 coaches, so there are lots of candidates out there.

What I do know is better coaches than Casey get hired by some team each year. I already said how I think Nurse is a better coach than him, and he has shown that as a head coach in the D-League too, not just as an assistant.

One candidate I got from a Jazz article as an example of someone to look at. Quin Snyder, an assistant in Atlanta. Young up and coming coach with experience in all areas. Head coach for D league team, top assistant for CSKA Moscow, former Lakers assistant, former head of player development for the 76ers, former head coach of University of Missouri, former assistant of Coach K, former assistant of Larry Brown.

There are plenty more candidates out there like Quin that I have no idea about, but I'm sure they're out there. I refuse to believe that Casey will be the best coach up for grabs.

[Raptorsnz]

Ya I'm not a fan of Casey either. Add to this short list his inability to handle rotations or inspire good play out of his guys, he is a confidence killer.

I would like to think Nurse is a Top Tier option. His work with BBL and the DL has been pretty good. Nurse and Bayno are the unsung heroes for this teams turn around for sure.

Uhhh, whose confidence has he killed? Fields possibly, but he was bad even in his sophomore season in NY. Before you could've argued JV but he's thriving. Ross is starting and just has his ups and downs. I can't think of anyone else possibly unless you want to argue Lowry/Gay last season, but that was as much on them as it was on Casey.

[stooley]

This is a pretty damn difficult request to give a fan posting in forums. I have zero familiarity with the assistant coaches in this league outside of Raptors. I also have zero familiarity with the elite coaches in Europe and the D-League. I'd assume the best candidates will come from these pools. For instance, Utah has stated they will interview at least 20 coaches, so there are lots of candidates out there.

What I do know is better coaches than Casey get hired by some team each year. I already said how I think Nurse is a better coach than him, and he has shown that as a head coach in the D-League too, not just as an assistant.

One candidate I got from a Jazz article as an exmaple of someone to look at. Quin Snyder, an assistant in Atlanta. Young up and coming coach with experience in all areas. Head coach for D league team, top assistant for CSKA Moscow, former Lakers assistant, former head of player development for the 76ers, former head coach of University of Missouri, former assistant of Coach K, former assistant of Larry Brown.

There are plenty more candidates out there like Quin that I have no idea about, but I'm sure they're out there. I refuse to believe that Casey will be the best coach up for grabs.

Well I'm saying, just look at the current NBA head coaches, and list which ones, if they were coach of the Raptors, you think would make a significant improvement on our results this year. If there are so many great candidates out there, why does every team keep making the wrong choice?

I know there are a lot of coaching candidates out there with very nice resumes and skillsets, but that doesn't mean they necessarily translate into good NBA head coaches.

Dwane Casey had an outstanding record as a long time assistant, who had actually had some experience as a head coach to draw from when we hired him. He was also credited with turning an ageing roster into a very strong defensive unit (which the mavs had never been).

When you compare what Casey's done this year with the raptors, to what the rest of the head coaches around the NBA have done, you'll see that Casey really isn't in bad company.

And, to add, I think that if you gamble on an unproven asset and it turns out badly, you've damaged your team's chemistry, motivation, continuity and will definitely hurt our young players' potential development.

[OldSkoolCool]

edit: And in what world has he not inspired good play out of his guys? Practically every player is having a career/breakout year.

Indeed they have.

Last year they were not so good under Casey. Then there were new assistants brought in during the off season and then the players have breakout seasons. Is that Casey's doing or the new assistants? I would argue the assistants because that was the only changed 'variable'.

Casey almost destroyed Ross' career (only Gay being traded saved his career from being stifled).

We have seen Val's confidence go up and down.

DJ looked like a turd here.

Acy was never used despite the fact that he was actually pretty good.

James Johnson was impounded and almost lost a spot in the league, even though he was a very good option at SF.

Over use of Jose despite the All-Star numbers that Bayless put up as a starter during injuries.

Gay was awful here, and has since been much better in Sac town.

Overusing AA/Salmons.

Lowry was nudered in year 1, had a talk with MU, started rough until Casey was forced to let him have a bigger role.

His rotations are inconsistent and don't inspire confidence with the second unit.

Casey is not a good coach and does not get the best out of his players. I would argue that he is an OK coach at best.

Nick Nurse did very good work with our summer league team and has done great work in the DL and BBL so I doubt that he would be a poor option at the head coaching position at the NBA level.

[stooley]

Indeed they have.

Last year they were not so good under Casey. Then there were new assistants brought in during the off season and then the players have breakout seasons. Is that Casey's doing or the new assistants? I would argue the assistants because that was the only changed 'variable'.

Casey almost destroyed Ross' career (only Gay being traded saved his career from being stifled).

We have seen Val's confidence go up and down.

DJ looked like a turd here.

Acy was never used despite the fact that he was actually pretty good.

James Johnson was impounded and almost lost a spot in the league, even though he was a very good option at SF.

Over use of Jose despite the All-Star numbers that Bayless put up as a starter during injuries.

Gay was awful here, and has since been much better in Sac town.

Overusing AA/Salmons.

Lowry was nudered in year 1, had a talk with MU, started rough until Casey was forced to let him have a bigger role.

His rotations are inconsistent and don't inspire confidence with the second unit.

Casey is not a good coach and does not get the best out of his players. I would argue that he is an OK coach at best.

Nick Nurse did very good work with our summer league team and has done great work in the DL and BBL so I doubt that he would be a poor option at the head coaching position at the NBA level.

Well it's hard to say what changed last year. We also got rid of the clubhouse cancers in Bargnani and Gay.

Casey didn't almost destroy Ross's career. Ross didn't ever have a career until this year. He was a reach on our #8 pick after everyone we'd liked had been taken off the board. People were predicting him as closer to a number 15 pick. So I think Casey deserves just as much credit as Colangelo in turning him into a productive starter.

Val's confidence has gone up and down because he's a sophomore, but looking at the big picture, he's well on his way to what we all hoped, but didn't necessarily expect.

DJ was also a turd in Indiana, whatever the hell's going on in Chicago right now is just weird.

Acy really isn't that good.

James Johnson is still on a minimum salary.

Bayless hasn't done much since he left.

Gay is a 2nd option in Sactown, and it's not like the team is doing all that well since he arrived.

Last year, we were trying to make the playoffs, which is why AA played so much. Salmons played really well for a few months when he got here. Casey gave him the benefit of the doubt for a while, but his patience is obviously wearing thin.

So, yes. If you're saying that Casey isn't perfect, then I agree. But none of those criticisms are really deal breakers, and look at what extent players have excelled this year, under his tutelage, when he was told that he'd be judged on player development.

[Primer]

Uhhh, whose confidence has he killed? Fields possibly, but he was bad even in his sophomore season in NY. Before you could've argued JV but he's thriving. Ross is starting and just has his ups and downs. I can't think of anyone else possibly unless you want to argue Lowry/Gay last season, but that was as much on them as it was on Casey.

JV's improvement is almost exclusively linked to his work with Bayno, not Casey. Bayno probably saved JV's career, as Casey was doing a damn good job of smashing his confidence to smithereens.

All of the improvements this year can be linked to the assistant coaches (Nurse the offense, Bayno the player development). Casey's defense is still solid, but that's all he brings to the table, and his flaws more than offset his defensive coaching. It's a role better fit for an assistant than a head coach.

Masai made the decision to bring in his own assistants and it has worked wonders. Once Casey's contract is up, Masai will finish the job and bring in his own head coach.

[stooley]

JV's improvement is almost exclusively linked to his work with Bayno, not Casey. Bayno probably saved JV's career, as Casey was doing a damn good job of smashing his confidence to smithereens.

All of the improvements this year can be linked to the assistant coaches (Nurse the offense, Bayno the player development). Casey's defense is still solid, but that's all he brings to the table, and his flaws more than offset his defensive coaching. It's a role better fit for an assistant than a head coach.

Masai made the decision to bring in his own assistants and it has worked wonders. Once Casey's contract is up, Masai will finish the job and bring in his own head coach.

I'd put money on that.

You say you trust Masai to pick the right candidate. If he rehires Casey, does that mean it was the right decision?

edit: and how can you say Casey hasn't had a hand in the success this year? he's the head coach for crying out loud. if he has the wisdom to defer to his assistant coaches on some matters, isn't that a positive?