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  • #31
    Hayward finished 1-for-17 from the field (he made a layup off an offensive rebound), completing not only the worst shooting performance of his career but also one of the worst volume shooting performances in modern NBA history. The 23-year-old swingman was a single attempt short of securing a comfy spot in basketball lore. According to Basketball-Reference, the standing record* for most field-goal attempts with one make or fewer belongs to one Chris Bosh, who went 1-of-18 for Miami against Chicago on Feb. 24, 2011. Also sharing Hayward’s 17-attempt plateau are Jason Kidd (1-of-17 in 2002), Tim Hardaway (0-for-17 in 1991) and Quentin Richardson (1-of-17 in 2004).
    http://nba.si.com/2013/11/21/gordon-...d-nba-history/

    Does that look like I made it up? THAT's who you want over DeMar? Sorry. HELL NO.

    Also, the pool selection for USA basketball was bizarre. There were at least 4 wings miles ahead of Hayward by any statistical measure that didn't get selected... Ugh. Don't get me started. They weighted it way too far towards bigs when traditional 5s don't do well in international ball. The whole thing was weird.

    EDIT: That performance was this season.

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    • #32
      I didn't say you made that up, infact I already noted he is struggling at times as a #1 option, especially creating his own offense. Just because he had a historically bad shooting game does not make him a bad player, that's silly. Having watched him play many times, I always liked him a LOT as an all round player. Very good defensively, nice ballhandling skills, very good passer and a good three point shooter, although not having his best year from down town. he cuts well off the ball and is great in transition . It's all about fit IMO and down the road he'll be an awesome #2 or #3 option for a good team, as he has all the intangibles to be so.

      Edit- I'm really not trying to downplay DeMar, and I don't want the raptors to get a player like Hayward at all, I just respect his allround game and for some reason felt the need to express it .

      Honestly I love the raptors team right now, I'd be perfectly happy to re sign Lowry and Patterson adding some depth with this draft pick (which I think will be a solid role player where the raptors will be picking so i'm quietly excited looking forward to the draft), and a value free agent or two. Build around JV and Tross, and get further development from them. I can't see why they can't continue to improve as a group.
      Last edited by BigCamB; Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:46 AM.

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      • #33
        KeonClark wrote: View Post
        The biggest issue we need to address is a better wing player. Whether it upgrades Derozan or T Ross, we need THAT guy still, which Rudy Gay never was and never should have been.
        I don't know what you're watching. But guard play is actually one of this team's strength.

        The biggest thing the Raptors need to address is an upgrade at the 4 position. They need a guy that they can throw the ball to in the post and score.
        Last edited by The Great One; Thu Jan 30, 2014, 05:04 AM.
        Mamba Mentality

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        • #34
          BigCamB wrote: View Post
          I didn't say you made that up, infact I already noted he is struggling at times as a #1 option, especially creating his own offense. Just because he had a historically bad shooting game does not make him a bad player, that's silly. Having watched him play many times, I always liked him a LOT as an all round player. Very good defensively, nice ballhandling skills, very good passer and a good three point shooter, although not having his best year from down town. he cuts well off the ball and is great in transition . It's all about fit IMO and down the road he'll be an awesome #2 or #3 option for a good team, as he has all the intangibles to be so.

          Edit- I'm really not trying to downplay DeMar, and I don't want the raptors to get a player like Hayward at all, I just respect his allround game and for some reason felt the need to express it .

          Honestly I love the raptors team right now, I'd be perfectly happy to re sign Lowry and Patterson adding some depth with this draft pick (which I think will be a solid role player where the raptors will be picking so i'm quietly excited looking forward to the draft), and a value free agent or two. Build around JV and Tross, and get further development from them. I can't see why they can't continue to improve as a group.
          I've been following him since NCAA's. I like his game. I just never have thought of the two players as being on par. On most teams DeMar is a 2nd/3rd option. On most teams Hayward is a solid starter or first man off the bench. He's definitely a player who will be in the league for over a decade, I just don't see how the two are even compared. And the rumored contract that he rejected was way too big for what he has done. People are over valuing him. And how he beat Chandler Parsons, DeMar, and a handful of other wings for a spot in the player pool completely baffled me.

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          • #35
            I think Hayward's struggles are overstated. These are his numbers over the last two months:





            18-5-5, good efficiency. He struggled at the start of the year, but it's not unusual for people to struggle after getting a much bigger role. The same thing happened to Paul George last year. Hayward has adjusted, although some roster changes helped as well (they went small with Kanter off the bench, Trey Burke got healthy and started to play).
            Last edited by BobLoblaw; Thu Jan 30, 2014, 08:24 AM.

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            • #36
              I think the first and formost thing we need is a Canadian Kid, one that can contribute. Who cares what position, hey if we land Wiggs awesome, but there are others out there, and some playing now. But with this generation pool coming up one guy makes a huge difference for the team and the following.

              The SF I believe will be the position of need all year and I don't doubt one of our guys comes home this year in the draft, regardless of where were drafting.

              After that we need someone to groom for PG. Backup center well if we could trade Hayes for Pachulia I would be fine. We just need size, if Hayes was 6'9 we would be fine. He has the toughness and savvy. but just to small in some ways, specifically height.

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              • #37
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Reality is the Raptors are not very deep right now so they need help everywhere.

                Obviously three ways to upgrade: draft, free agency, and trades.

                Draft:
                Always best player available, but targeting PG would be nice: Ennis, LaVine, Micic, Carson. If they can trade up and get Smart or Exum - great - but I'm thinking 15-19 pick.


                Free Agency:
                If the goal is to keep getting better from here, then Lowry and Patterson need to be resigned.
                I would be looking for value contracts to fill out the roster similar to Hansbrough this year.
                I like Jordan Hamilton and Al-Farouq Aminu.


                Trades:
                There is a forum for that. So many variables who knows. Outside of the pieces everyone would want to keep, what do the Raptors have to trade? Hayes, Fields, Novak? I'm weary of returns. Salmons contract is an interesting piece.


                Last need left to address: back up C.
                Maybe trade Salmons for Perkins and another 1st - preferably Dallas?
                How much will Spencer Hayes be? Jordan Hill? Ayon?
                When you look at the how Vasquez is used with Casey, Jimmer Freddette I think would be a good option. Vasquez shoots more than he passes. Jimmer can certainly shoot.

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                • #38
                  blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                  I've been following him since NCAA's. I like his game. I just never have thought of the two players as being on par. On most teams DeMar is a 2nd/3rd option. On most teams Hayward is a solid starter or first man off the bench. He's definitely a player who will be in the league for over a decade, I just don't see how the two are even compared. And the rumored contract that he rejected was way too big for what he has done. People are over valuing him. And how he beat Chandler Parsons, DeMar, and a handful of other wings for a spot in the player pool completely baffled me.
                  Thsts fine, I disagree. Happens all the time on forums

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                  • #39
                    ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
                    Alright, the way the Raptors are going to improve/upgrade:

                    Internal growth: another Summer for Terrence Ross, JV, & DeRozan. Alll 3 guys have improved compared to the seasons before now.

                    Draft: Raptors have a couple picks I believe, including the 1st rounder in this upcoming draft, which I think should go towards either the point guard spot (even if both Lowry/Vasquez are retained) or the small forward spot (lack of serious depth).

                    Free agency: Pick up Ppatt's option, re-sign Lowry & Vasquez (or pick up GV's option, whatever it is), and look for those positional players like Sefolosha, etc.

                    Trade: Fields and Hansbrough might be assets (I hope Hansbrough stays though).
                    Fields is definitely not an asset. A shame, but the truth.
                    Twitter - @thekid_it

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                    • #40
                      blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                      http://nba.si.com/2013/11/21/gordon-...d-nba-history/

                      Does that look like I made it up? THAT's who you want over DeMar? Sorry. HELL NO.

                      Also, the pool selection for USA basketball was bizarre. There were at least 4 wings miles ahead of Hayward by any statistical measure that didn't get selected... Ugh. Don't get me started. They weighted it way too far towards bigs when traditional 5s don't do well in international ball. The whole thing was weird.

                      EDIT: That performance was this season.
                      So, you'd rather have DeMar over Jason Kidd, Tim Hardaway, Q-Rich and Chris Bosh? Because they all had bad shooting nights like that too, it's right in your quote.

                      Silly reasoning.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • #41
                        Did anyone check out the MLSE round table with McCowan yesterday? I really think MU is looking to land a big fish. I'm not sure if this is the KD/LBJ caliber player or not but it seems that they are confidant they can make a great pitch to a top tier free agent in the future.

                        I have a feeling that MU is going to try and maintain some flexibility while accumulating assets over the next couple of seasons to see if he can get a top tier guy via sign and trade. I'm not expecting any major upgrades until MU can go after a guy like Love or KD. But if he can hold on to his picks and get guys like 2Pat and Vasquez on cap friendly deals, he should have the assets he needs to put a good package together to make a run at a top tier guy. Do this while keeping the team competitive, continue to develop that winning culture and who wouldn't want to play here?

                        Also, I think the sign and trade might be a preferable approach for MU than simply clearing cap space, because if he can't land a guy he still has the option to resign/extend some of those assets and still field a competitive team. I don't think he'll leave himself in a position where he has to scramble to sign lower tier guys just to fill out the roster. I don't get the feeling that MLSE/MU will be targeting the top of the draft, unless it's via trade.

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                        • #42
                          JawsGT wrote: View Post
                          Did anyone check out the MLSE round table with McCowan yesterday? I really think MU is looking to land a big fish. I'm not sure if this is the KD/LBJ caliber player or not but it seems that they are confidant they can make a great pitch to a top tier free agent in the future.

                          I have a feeling that MU is going to try and maintain some flexibility while accumulating assets over the next couple of seasons to see if he can get a top tier guy via sign and trade. I'm not expecting any major upgrades until MU can go after a guy like Love or KD. But if he can hold on to his picks and get guys like 2Pat and Vasquez on cap friendly deals, he should have the assets he needs to put a good package together to make a run at a top tier guy. Do this while keeping the team competitive, continue to develop that winning culture and who wouldn't want to play here?

                          Also, I think the sign and trade might be a preferable approach for MU than simply clearing cap space, because if he can't land a guy he still has the option to resign/extend some of those assets and still field a competitive team. I don't think he'll leave himself in a position where he has to scramble to sign lower tier guys just to fill out the roster. I don't get the feeling that MLSE/MU will be targeting the top of the draft, unless it's via trade.
                          No doubt.

                          However, unless they shed any combination of DeRozan/Fields/Hayes/Johnson/Novak and/or renounce Lowry (i.e. guaranteed money for 2014-15) the earliest they can make a splash is summer of 2015.

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                          • #43
                            DanH wrote: View Post
                            So, you'd rather have DeMar over Jason Kidd, Tim Hardaway, Q-Rich and Chris Bosh? Because they all had bad shooting nights like that too, it's right in your quote.

                            Silly reasoning.
                            Yes, I would never have wanted Q for a gaggle of reasons on any team that I have followed. Which version of J Kidd are we talking about? And Bosh plays a completely different position.

                            Secondly, Your taking statements completely out of context. And what years did those moments happen? There's no context to the names you stated. Would I want an old Hardaway? Kidd? Etc.? Or did these bad nights you refer to happen earlier in their careers? Context is everything. Hayward is about to enter his first real contract. He turned down a contract (allegedly) that was way bigger than DeMar's contract. Meanwhile, he has never had the type of responsibility that DeMar has had. I already said that I see the kid as a player who'll be in the league for over a decade. I like his play....So what's your beef?

                            Everything that I'm saying is under context of the current environment, future contracts, experience in roles. If you read our exchange instead of butting in you would see that. Also, were any of the bad performances from the said players you mention historically bad? If Kidd misses shots he gets assists. Same as Hardaway. Bosh gives you rebounds...I already said that I would never have Q Rich on a team if I was a manager.

                            Also, I used links. Got links? Or are you just spouting whatever to start conflict?

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                            • #44
                              We need guys like Rudy Gay and Chris Bosh, who's names aren't Rudy Gay and Chris Bosh...

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                              • #45
                                DanH wrote: View Post
                                So, you'd rather have DeMar over Jason Kidd, Tim Hardaway, Q-Rich and Chris Bosh? Because they all had bad shooting nights like that too, it's right in your quote.

                                Silly reasoning.
                                Yeah, haha. That didn't really help make his point better to look at the rest of his season.
                                "Bruno?
                                Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                                He's terrible."

                                -Superjudge, 7/23

                                Hope you're wrong.

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