How Can We Upgrade This Offseason?

[DanH]

Yes, I would never have wanted Q for a gaggle of reasons on any team that I have followed. Which version of J Kidd are we talking about? And Bosh plays a completely different position.

Secondly, Your taking statements completely out of context. And what years did those moments happen? There's no context to the names you stated. Would I want an old Hardaway? Kidd? Etc.? Or did these bad nights you refer to happen earlier in their careers? Context is everything. Hayward is about to enter his first real contract. He turned down a contract (allegedly) that was way bigger than DeMar's contract. Meanwhile, he has never had the type of responsibility that DeMar has had. I already said that I see the kid as a player who'll be in the league for over a decade. I like his play....So what's your beef?

Everything that I'm saying is under context of the current environment, future contracts, experience in roles. If you read our exchange instead of butting in you would see that. Also, were any of the bad performances from the said players you mention historically bad? If Kidd misses shots he gets assists. Same as Hardaway. Bosh gives you rebounds...I already said that I would never have Q Rich on a team if I was a manager.

Also, I used links. Got links? Or are you just spouting whatever to start conflict?

Well, all the information I posted was not only from YOUR link, but from the paragraph you yourself quoted. Sorry I didn't re-post that link for you.

As for your specific questions:

Hardaway had his game in 1991-92. He was 25. He averaged 23 points per game that year, with a 19 PER.
Kidd had his game in 2001-02. He was 28. He averaged 15 points per game, with a 19 PER.
Bosh had his game in 2011-12. He was 26. He averaged 18 points per game, with a 19 PER.

Hardaway, when he misses, gets you assists (13 in his game). Kidd when he misses gets you assists (15 in his game, plus 8 rebounds). Bosh when he misses gets you rebounds (9 in his game).

That, as you say, is clearly not true of Hayward. That's why in his game, he only got 11 assists and 6 rebounds, while turning it over less than Kidd or Hardaway in their games (1 TO versus 4 or 6), and actually ended up with the only positive game score of the bunch.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...=&order_by=pts

[stooley]

Well, all the information I posted was not only from YOUR link, but from the paragraph you yourself quoted. Sorry I didn't re-post that link for you.

As for your specific questions:

Hardaway had his game in 1991-92. He was 25. He averaged 23 points per game that year, with a 19 PER.
Kidd had his game in 2001-02. He was 28. He averaged 15 points per game, with a 19 PER.
Bosh had his game in 2011-12. He was 26. He averaged 18 points per game, with a 19 PER.

Hardaway, when he misses, gets you assists (13 in his game). Kidd when he misses gets you assists (15 in his game, plus 8 rebounds). Bosh when he misses gets you rebounds (9 in his game).

That, as you say, is clearly not true of Hayward. That's why in his game, he only got 11 assists and 6 rebounds, while turning it over less than Kidd or Hardaway in their games (1 TO versus 4 or 6), and actually ended up with the only positive game score of the bunch.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...=&order_by=pts

Making any kind of argument based on one game's worth of data is kinda crazy. I think it was pretty obvious that that 1/17 game wasn't proof that Hayward is a bad player.

When talking about Hayward, I think the most important aspects to bring up are:

1. age
2. true SF
3. PER of 17.2

[JawsGT]

I really think we need a power PF, someone who can play back to the basket and attract the double. Amir and Pattman are more stretch 4s, and would make a GREAT pairing on a bench unit with a balance of PnR ability/shooting/defense/mobility/rebounding.

Yep. This is one of the reasons I wouldn't mind an upgrade at the 4 too. Amir and 2Pat would do well next to Vasquez coming off the bench, if of course, we were to keep vasquez.

[akashsingh]

things that are bothering me...

1) wiggins is starting to heat up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ6fW66w7mg, is it worth missing out on a chance to get a homegrown talent like this, when the team as constructed won't win a chip

2)kyle lowry while playing like an all star, does a terrible job of involving our big men, specifically jonas valanciunas. At least vasquez gets him touches.

ii) kyle lowry going to get paid. good estimate is 10 million a year imo.

iii) Not sure how aggressively he is playing as of late is sustainable (injury wise), he spends alot of time on the floor.

3) No doubt derozan has improved every year, but he is still below average efficiency, and you have to think the rate at which he is improving is going to take a nosedive considering he has been 4 1/2 years in the league.

4) How are we not going to be mediocre for the next couple of years? To be fair masai is playing his cards tight, but I perceive we are going forward with this group of guys which I think would be a mistake.

5)If you asked me who I supported early in my fandom, I would say the raptors no questions asked. But as you learn more about players, succesful teams, how players fit together, contract issues, style of play, it becomes easier to see trainwrecks....I might go out and support whoever drafts wiggins, if the rest of their team is built for success.

[stooley]

5)If you asked me who I supported early in my fandom, I would say the raptors no questions asked. But as you learn more about players, succesful teams, how players fit together, contract issues, style of play, it becomes easier to see trainwrecks....I might go out and support whoever drafts wiggins, if the rest of their team is built for success.

I will never, ever forgive you.

[akashsingh]

I will never, ever forgive you.

it's a pretty big if, the rest of the team has to be built right, I'm picky, especially with pg's and centres.

[white men can't jump]

1) wiggins is starting to heat up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ6fW66w7mg, is it worth missing out on a chance to get a homegrown talent like this, when the team as constructed won't win a chip

2)kyle lowry while playing like an all star, does a terrible job of involving our big men, specifically jonas valanciunas. At least vasquez gets him touches.

ii) kyle lowry going to get paid. good estimate is 10 million a year imo.

iii) Not sure how aggressively he is playing as of late is sustainable (injury wise), he spends alot of time on the floor.

3) No doubt derozan has improved every year, but he is still below average efficiency, and you have to think the rate at which he is improving is going to take a nosedive considering he has been 4 1/2 years in the league.

4) How are we not going to be mediocre for the next couple of years? To be fair masai is playing his cards tight, but I perceive we are going forward with this group of guys which I think would be a mistake.

5)If you asked me who I supported early in my fandom, I would say the raptors no questions asked. But as you learn more about players, succesful teams, how players fit together, contract issues, style of play, it becomes easier to see trainwrecks....I might go out and support whoever drafts wiggins, if the rest of their team is built for success.

I assume you mean strictly shooting? His PER right now is a solid 17.9 as per basketball-reference.

The only thing that really still consistently bugs me about DD is his defence. Some games he's just a total turnstile on the perimeter. He's gotten better at making reads and going for steals....but his fundamental D is still about average or slightly above at best, and even that "best" is not even there enough nights.

I have the same concerns about how Lowry involves our bigs, and not just Jonas. Too many games where our O is very perimeter based, including in how we use some of our bigs like Pat and Amir. Not sure how that works in the playoffs, especially against a solid defensive coach/team.

I have no idea what to expect moving forward. Masai's a sneaky GM. Even if he moves forward with this core going into next year, I have no feeling that he'll be attached to it.

[ceez]

Chad Ford in his latest chat just said Kyrie wants out... Fascinating.

Lowry and pieces for Kyrie and pieces? He'd certainly be the big fish Leiweke and Co are looking for...

[JawsGT]

Chad Ford in his latest chat just said Kyrie wants out... Fascinating.

Lowry and pieces for Kyrie and pieces? He'd certainly be the big fish Leiweke and Co are looking for...

why does that not surprise. Rather have Lowry personally, if Kyrie were that big fish Cleveland wouldn't be in this mess.

[white men can't jump]

Chad Ford in his latest chat just said Kyrie wants out... Fascinating.

Lowry and pieces for Kyrie and pieces? He'd certainly be the big fish Leiweke and Co are looking for...

I really dislike Kyrie. Don't anyone tell me Cleveland doesn't have enough talent to help him. They've had about as much talent as Toronto, if not more. He is not a leader. He doesn't play D. He doesn't do a very good job running the O and getting others involved. And because of his ego and talent, he'll likely command max or near-max money....for a guy who hasn't move the Win-needle an inch since getting to Cleveland.....Oh, and he's been a bit fragile, which is always a minus.

Pass...

[jimmie]

Chad Ford in his latest chat just said Kyrie wants out... Fascinating.

Lowry and pieces for Kyrie and pieces? He'd certainly be the big fish Leiweke and Co are looking for...

That would be big splash material for sure. Lowry+Derozan for Irving+Bennett+4 years of Karasev?? Interesting...

[The Great One]

The Cavs are like the Edmonton Oilers of basketball. Bunch of high draft picks, 1st overalls. But they never win.

To all the pro-tankers here. Just look at the Cleveland Cavaliers.

[stooley]

I really dislike Kyrie. Don't anyone tell me Cleveland doesn't have enough talent to help him. They've had about as much talent as Toronto, if not more. He is not a leader. He doesn't play D. He doesn't do a very good job running the O and getting others involved. And because of his ego and talent, he'll likely command max or near-max money....for a guy who hasn't move the Win-needle an inch since getting to Cleveland.....Oh, and he's been a bit fragile, which is always a minus.

Pass...

Kyrie is in his third year and was an all star last year. His defensive deficiencies are worrying, but I think under Casey's system, they could be masked.

If we then went and got a long athletic 3 to pair with him, then 3/5 starters would be top tier defensive players (Ross, 3, Amir) and our center would have the ability to develop into a defensive stopper as well.

Finally, we could shift DD to our 6th man or trade him, since Kyrie would usurp his title as "the man" and do his job more efficiently.

[ceez]

I agree that Kyrie has had a brutal year and has a lot of cons but i think a lot of them have to do with playing under Brown who's coincidentally the same guy that was around when Lebron skipped town. Dudes just a terrible head coach.

I'm not saying it's all because of Brown but i do think all the problems he has are very fixable.

Our roster still has a lot of work that needs to be done, though.

[white men can't jump]

Kyrie is in his third year and was an all star last year. His defensive deficiencies are worrying, but I think under Casey's system, they could be masked.

If we then went and got a long athletic 3 to pair with him, then 3/5 starters would be top tier defensive players (Ross, 3, Amir) and our center would have the ability to develop into a defensive stopper as well.

Finally, we could shift DD to our 6th man or trade him, since Kyrie would usurp his title as "the man" and do his job more efficiently.

This all sounds very flawed.

The first bit....you don't try to mask defensive deficiencies. That's the hardest way to build a team. You don't need elite defenders everywhere, but you need guys who can at least hold their own to some degree. Irving's matchups regularly have great games against him.

The second and third bit....You mean like Luol Deng, and moving DeMar into a Waiters-type role? It just sounds like we'd be making exactly the same mistakes Cleveland is making. And Varejao and Thompson are not bad defensive players.

I don't like Kyrie Irving, and I think there's too much "hoping he changes/gets it" involved, and you end up paying through the roof to extend him. And his durability is already a concern, so it's more than just basketball skills to worry about.