Zach Lowe on Lowry, Derozan and the 2014 All-Star Game

[Superjudge]

hahahah typo

[salmon]

It would really help the conversation if you actually read the thread. No one wanted OJ Mayo. I'm a DeMar supporter -- as pretty much every debate on him that I have commented on has shown. I merely used OJ as a player who put up similar numbers last season and got a smaller contract.

In business you try to get the most production for the least amount of salary paid. If BC let the market dictate any of the contracts that he signed players to he could have saved millions.

That's a big deal in a salary cap league.

You seriously think you can give me business lessons? lol.

"If I actually read the thread'? I read it, or I would not have made comments. My comment about people having wanted OJ refers to months of DeMar dissing and using Mayo as one of the examples of better player/value, and yes, many were clamouring for OJ, as he was viewed by the naive as better than DeMar. I mentioned OJ in particular because you raised OJ as one of your fine examples of how, in your imagination, DeMar could have been low-balled (thank you craig), which when comparing these two players beyond your "similar numbers", is ridiculous, imo.

As far as your attempts at business education, "could have saved millions" can easily have been "could have cost millions", but you see, running a successful business, involves a shit load more than bottom line accounting, and penny pinching whenever having the upper hand, real or perceived. In most businesses, your greatest commodity is people. In sports/entertainment, that's accentuated even more. Intelligent employers look at more than numbers, and place great value on work ethic, commitment, character, etc.. DeMar oozes all of those, and that's very important in a team atmosphere, where all of that can rub off on others, as well as being great facets of the individual. OJ Mayo (your example) reeks of lack of all of them. If your going to use a Mayo as a comparison, then your point should be more along the lines of what a genius move it was signing DeMar at that price.

[Superjudge]

derozan only makes like 9.5 a year, jesus, thats not a bad contract, its actually a nice deal for toronto since he locked in.

people are a bit funny I think

[mcHAPPY]

derozan only makes like 9.5 a year, jesus, thats not a bad contract, its actually a nice deal for toronto since he locked in.

people are a bit funny I think

It is not a bad contract now.

What would the offers have been before this year, last summer?

That is the only gripe here.

Colangelo didn't let the market dictate his pay and surrendered the RFA leverage in negotiating the extension.

Lots of love for Demar and the contract but are people aware the final year is a player option?

If he keeps playing like this he is an UFA in 2016.

[Scraptor]

Just ridiculous and completely gives away a naive and "fantasy sports" mentality.

Dennis Lindsey, formerly of the Spurs FO, and now doing a very good job with the Jazz, is doing this very thing with Gordon Hayward (letting the market determine his contract as an RFA). If you think that he's being naive and using a fantasy sports mentality, go right ahead. I think small markets have a smaller margin of error than big ones.

[Joey]

Dennis Lindsey, formerly of the Spurs FO, and now doing a very good job with the Jazz, is doing this very thing with Gordon Hayward (letting the market determine his contract as an RFA). If you think that he's being naive and using a fantasy sports mentality, go right ahead. I think small markets have a smaller margin of error than big ones.

Actually pretty sure they tried to offer Hayward an extension and he opted to test his value.

For Hayward to turn down a four-year deal worth $40 million-plus, he'd risk the possibility of an injury this season that could impact his earning power as a restricted free agent in July 2014.
Source

[Scraptor]

Actually pretty sure they tried to offer Hayward an extension and he opted to test his value.

The key thing is they wanted more and Lindsey didn't chase them on it. Danny Ferry did the same with Jeff Teague.

It's like committing with pocket sevens in early position in poker. Occasionally it might work out for you but over the long run it is a losing strategy.

If a guy's clearly going to get max level offers like Paul George there's no issue. It's the more nebulous cases in which it makes less sense. Not to mention that for all of 2012-13 the extension complicated Demar's trade value considerably. Waiting for RFA gives you a lot more flexibility in that regard too.

[Scraptor]

In any case, it's water under the bridge. I do agree that with these moves working out it means BC isn't the abject failure he's often called, just a guy who made a lot of bad calls mixed in with a few good ones. As long as all five starters are BC guys and the coach is someone BC hired I have a hard time saying this isn't essentially BC's team. For better or worse.

[magoon]

I think the key points which really are not disputable are

1. DeRozan wanted to continue playing here
2. We wanted to re-sign him
3. At $9.5m per year given DeMar's current production, it is a very decent contract (it's not as outstanding as people make it out to be, but it's definitely good)
4. We probably could have had him for $1-2 million less per year pretty easily, and that matters.

[OldSkoolCool]

I think the key points which really are not disputable are

1. DeRozan wanted to continue playing here
2. We wanted to re-sign him
3. At $9.5m per year given DeMar's current production, it is a very decent contract (it's not as outstanding as people make it out to be, but it's definitely good)
4. We probably could have had him for $1-2 million less per year pretty easily, and that matters.

At his current production.

However when he was given the contract he was worth only about 6-7 mil

Thats the issue

[salmon]

I think the key points which really are not disputable are

1. DeRozan wanted to continue playing here
2. We wanted to re-sign him
3. At $9.5m per year given DeMar's current production, it is a very decent contract (it's not as outstanding as people make it out to be, but it's definitely good)
4. We probably could have had him for $1-2 million less per year pretty easily, and that matters.

You were doing so good up until #4. First, "probably"/"pretty easily" doesn't fit too fell with "not disputable". Mostly, I doubt you have indisputable" information that defines what value 29 GMs in the league would have put on DeMar. You may be able to guess, but please don't just compare stats. You'd have to know what value these teams would put on all the intangibles like character, work ethic, dedication, loyalty, age (he was 23 in July). Or maybe I'm missing something? Why do you feel 1-2M less is indisputable?

At his current production.

However when he was given the contract he was worth only about 6-7 mil

Thats the issue

Again, you don't know what he was worth, you really don't. But the GM made a call on what he was going to be worth the years that he was actually going to be earning that money. Big business is like that sometimes. Ya gotta make some calls on the future, not base every decision on the here and now. In fact whatever the business, anybody giving someone a millions of $ /year deal, is taking some risk. Whatever you, or anybody, felt about the deal at the time, in reality it turns out to be a good deal.

Give it up. Live with it. The facts, not supposition, say he made a good call.

[OldSkoolCool]

Give it up. Live with it. The facts, not supposition, say he made a good call.

Colangelo made the wrong call. He should have made a low offer. If DD takes it, win for TO. If DD refuses we have his RFA rights and DD plays the market, which after last season, wasn't very good, and we may have gotten him for a better price because his value was lower.

It was the wrong call. Colangelo over bid against himself. That is stupid management.

[torch19]

Colangelo made the wrong call. He should have made a low offer. If DD takes it, win for TO. If DD refuses we have his RFA rights and DD plays the market, which after last season, wasn't very good, and we may have gotten him for a better price because his value was lower.

It was the wrong call. Colangelo over bid against himself. That is stupid management.

Not so sure. We also could have faced a situation where a team like New Orleans offer him a contract (say similar to Tyreke Evans); about $1.5 M higher on avg than DeMar's per season.

You never know how teams value guys around the league. I can live with DeMar @ $9.5 M per season; all star -- 24 years old -- good character. He is now truly a 'coveted trade asset' & he's in his first year of his contract. Next year, he has very good trade value & a struggling team may want to trade for him since he is a marketable name - sort of like the Pelicans, Pistons, Cavs, Kings situation.

If he makes the All Star game again, that makes his contract look even sweeter -- good chip esp @ deadline or draft night 2015. He's a good asset to have & he's doing an admirable job as the #1 option right now. Can't hate on Colangelo for this one.

But the Fields deal ……… that one stings alot

[ezz_bee]

Everyone here loves Zach Lowe, yet, its funny how many of you will completely pretend this comment wasn't part of his article.

I am missing your point.

It is not a bad contract now.

What would the offers have been before this year, last summer?

That is the only gripe here.

Colangelo didn't let the market dictate his pay and surrendered the RFA leverage in negotiating the extension.

Lots of love for Demar and the contract but are people aware the final year is a player option?

If he keeps playing like this he is an UFA in 2016.

Player options are always a bad idea, and they've been pretty much abandoned by GMs and rightfully so. That said I've been one of the few posters here NOT high on Demar but FINE with his contract. Does everyone realize that this is his first year of his contract? He didn't make 9.5 million last year. You can go back to some pretty decent threads from this off-season between Xixak (What happened to him anyway?) Matt52 and myself.

Basically, Matt52 (Matt correct me if I am mis-remembering your position) and I were in agreement that Demar had played over 10,000 minutes and was unlikely to make anything other than modest improvements. Although it could be argued that his improvements would fit into the "modest" category, he has surpassed my expectations and I'm happy to eat a little bit of crow. The second part of my argument was that even if Demar only made "modest"-to-no improvements, his contract would only be slightly below average this year, average-to above average next year, and a value contract in year three and year four, or a great value contract in year 3 and a fourth year opt-out. Meaning WORST CASE scenario was a net neutral contract.

It seems like everyone thinks that if Demar went to restricted free agency he'd sign a new contract. That's not necessarily true. What if he doesn't like any of the offers he received in this off-season? This season we'd be facing a Demar who made the all-star team on an expiring contract, and we'd have all the associated questions about whether it was only due to a contract year. We'd be in the worst-position of either having to over pay him (versus the 9.5 mil he's making this season, AND the next two) or let him walk for no assets. Worst case scenario, Demar is a value-neutral contract this year and a value plus contract for the next two seasons (he'll opt out in his final year).

Could Coangelo have done better, possibly but it isn't a certainty, and all kinds of things can happen when other teams get involved. Yes Coangelo gave up some flexibility and there was cost to that, but it's hard to argue with the results. Signing a contract with a worst-case scenario of net-neutral is pretty hard to criticize.

We're all arm-chair gms and I am not a Coangelo apologist, but on the Demar extension he clearly deserves a pass, whether he he was exercising good judgement, or lucky, he predicted Demar's progress and made a him an offer based on his projection. His projection has been validated by time.

[mcHAPPY]

Player options are always a bad idea, and they've been pretty much abandoned by GMs and rightfully so. That said I've been one of the few posters here NOT high on Demar but FINE with his contract. Does everyone realize that this is his first year of his contract? He didn't make 9.5 million last year. You can go back to some pretty decent threads from this off-season between Xixak (What happened to him anyway?) Matt52 and myself.

Basically, Matt52 (Matt correct me if I am mis-remembering your position) and I were in agreement that Demar had played over 10,000 minutes and was unlikely to make anything other than modest improvements. Although it could be argued that his improvements would fit into the "modest" category, he has surpassed my expectations and I'm happy to eat a little bit of crow. The second part of my argument was that even if Demar only made "modest"-to-no improvements, his contract would only be slightly below average this year, average-to above average next year, and a value contract in year three and year four, or a great value contract in year 3 and a fourth year opt-out. Meaning WORST CASE scenario was a net neutral contract.

It seems like everyone thinks that if Demar went to restricted free agency he'd sign a new contract. That's not necessarily true. What if he doesn't like any of the offers he received in this off-season? This season we'd be facing a Demar who made the all-star team on an expiring contract, and we'd have all the associated questions about whether it was only due to a contract year. We'd be in the worst-position of either having to over pay him (versus the 9.5 mil he's making this season, AND the next two) or let him walk for no assets. Worst case scenario, Demar is a value-neutral contract this year and a value plus contract for the next two seasons (he'll opt out in his final year).

Could Coangelo have done better, possibly but it isn't a certainty, and all kinds of things can happen when other teams get involved. Yes Coangelo gave up some flexibility and there was cost to that, but it's hard to argue with the results. Signing a contract with a worst-case scenario of net-neutral is pretty hard to criticize.

We're all arm-chair gms and I am not a Coangelo apologist, but on the Demar extension he clearly deserves a pass, whether he he was exercising good judgement, or lucky, he predicted Demar's progress and made a him an offer based on his projection. His projection has been validated by time.

Actually I said he is what he is. That was clearly wrong on non-scoring facets of his game. He has proven to be an exception to the rule of the last 50 years of NBA ball. I said last summer I'm happy to be wrong and I am. He does contribute in more ways than scoring the ball rising to slightly above average on the glass and assisting and becoming better on D.

When it comes to scoring, though, it was dead on thus far. The inefficiency at which he scores is still a major concern. Every now and then he has an absolute monster game where bad shots go in but on the whole and overall those are still bad shots. If he could tack on another .2 points per shot, he would be an elite scorer. He is currently 11th in the league in scoring on the 6th most field goal attempts. If he tacked on .2 per shot he would go from tied for 72nd in PPS to 10th and he would be 5th in the league in scoring at nearly 26ppg. A couple more corner 3s per game and a couple more drives per game and that should do it.

Some are going to look at that as hating. Whatever.

As for the contract, sure it has worked out for BC on this contract. I still do not understand why he didn't wait to see what the market offered. If free agency was as difficult as Colangelo made it out to be and the necessity to over pay on free agents was actually correct, why would he bid against himself when those precious $1-2M extra could have been spent on one of those overpayments he felt he so desperately needed to land free agents.