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Is this season a success if we make the play offs?

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  • #31
    planetmars wrote: View Post
    The positives of this season have to be stated again.

    1) MU traded Bargnani and Gay and got smaller more manageable contracts with upside in one case and draft picks in another.
    2) DeMar became an all-star
    3) Ross and JV both grew as sophomores
    4) The Raptors still have enough money on the books to go after a max contract player in 2015.
    5) The Raptors still have their 2014 and 2015 draft picks

    With that said.. the win/loss record and any playoff success they have this year will probably not dictate how they respond next season. I can even see them taking a step back (eg, Lowry leaves) so they can take two steps forward the following year. I am always in favour of getting things done quickly but MU has 4 more years on his contract. If they stumble next season they still have pieces that can help them get to the next level. Miami may not always be as strong either (Wade is getting older, Bosh/James may both leave). Indiana is still a small-market team and they have 2 max-contracts and limited funds to get better. Toronto can jump into contender status but patience is probably needed.

    Keys to success will be what MU can do with trades this summer. Does he resign Lowry and at what price? Do DD/TR/JV all come back? What happens to Amir? Do they use their mid-level and on who? Who does he draft? I'm not sure but my gut believes that MU is going to make a bold move that will alter the team that we've seen this year. And that alteration could cause the team to do worse than they did this year. Not sure it will be a tank for 2015 but it could end up that way and I'm okay with that.

    The Raptors have a long way to go before they become legitimate contenders. Organic growth could get them there but I think TL is looking for star power and that is still lacking despite the fact that they have an all-star and a guy that should have been an all-star.
    I agree with most of your points. However one (bold) is where I disagree. I feel that playoff success (or lack of) will play a huge role:
    -If this team gets knocked out in first round, I 'd say a lot of changes are in order -from DD, Kyle, coach...
    -If, however we take Indiana or Miami in second round to 6 games(maybe even 5) -perhaps Casey is safe and some tweaking might be in order, depending on which weakness gets exposed the most. Kyle's performance & status in FA will play a huge role as well.
    WRT to player availability, I expect number of teams to be very concerned with payroll/tax (more or less most teams except for Lakers, Knicks & Brooklyn). IMO this will result in some all stars (or near all stars) being available. Can we find our "alpha dog" (something we clearly need now)?
    Attracting young all stars should be greatly enhanced with some playoff success. Having an owner willing to exceed max (and pay tax) also helps a lot.
    I'd say Raps future is bright.

    Comment


    • #32
      blackjitsu wrote: View Post
      The primary goals before the season were:

      1/ Move Bargs
      2/ See if Gay and DD work well together, if not, move one
      3/ Develop Ross and Val

      I'd say the season is already a success. Playoffs is a bonus.
      The other bonus is that we developed two legit all-star quality players (Lowry & DD). Who saw that coming? Pretty good selling point for any players we might acquire by future trade or FA. Who says you can't be an all-star and get media recognition while playing in Toronto?

      Oh, and another bonus is that we acquired another young player in 2Pat, who looks like a quality piece with upside, moving forward.

      Comment


      • #33
        For this season to be a success, it's making it to the second round or deeper. As mentioned by Masai the East is weak, simply making the playoffs isn't enough. This team needs to continue to develop, the most evident thing is consistency. Some nights are difficult to watch, and it's usually when they struggle to score against the bottom dwellers. Their 1st Quarter production needs to improve, even if it takes a shake up in the starting lineup.

        Ross needs the ball more in my opinion, when he gets going this team is hard to beat. It seems to me, when he is more involved at the beginning of games is when he ends up contributing the most. DeMar and Lowry seem to be players that can get it going at any point in the game, So Ross and JV should be the focus right off the top. The development of our sophomores is what makes this season a true success going forward.

        For offseason success, we need to get Lowry at a FAIR price (8-9 mil IMO), and hope he comes into the season as hungry. I think our big free agency focus should be 2015 when Fields, Hayes, Salmons (if the team option is picked up this offseason) Amir (if the team option is picked up this offseason), and the buyouts come off our books. Next season should be trying to establish core growth and a winning culture. I like what Masai has done so far.. this team has come a long way from the Bargs and Gay days. Flexibility seems to be the focus and I think he has done the best with what he had.
        Last edited by saints91; Sat Feb 22, 2014, 10:18 PM.

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        • #34
          I think there are corporate goals that have been achieved this year
          • got rid of Bargnani and ended that endlessly dead-end story
          • tried the Rudy Gay experience (6-12) - and calmly ended that BC gambling story with a good trade
          • the record since the trade is 24-13 (.649) and is a short-term success that has started to change the Raptors' league-wide story
          • DeRozan's rise to all-star reduces the story that the Raptors team is a place that never develops talent
          • Even with Lowry gone, if Ujiri wants to be totally short-term and just plug-in a top-level PG, the supporting cast (all-star DD, JV, TR) would make this 2nd-tier destination (not having to pay extra)
          • killed the 5-years-without-playoffs albatross that killed BC
          • Playoffs!!! Revenues + excitement + Raptors focus
          • if the Raptors end up in 6th position, there's good chance of 2nd round appearance


          The longer term step of going from .600~.650 team to contender has not been addressed - that's going to have to touch the current core of DD, JV, TR, Amir the Hamir
          Last edited by GoingBig; Sun Feb 23, 2014, 08:55 AM.

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          • #35
            Scraptor wrote: View Post
            I will judge the success of this season based on what happens with Kyle Lowry.

            If he leaves, we basically squandered a great opportunity to add a great young prospect in the draft to Val and Ross while also giving them much more minutes to develop.

            Each season is either a step towards winning a championship or a step away (and remaining in place is a step away given the opportunity cost).

            If Lowry walks, playoffs won't mean a thing because he was the biggest factor in getting us there. And all this "patience, Masai is evaluating" will be revealed as fatal indecisiveness.

            I trust the guy but man is he walking the razor's edge.

            I agree. The gamble has been played on Lowry, too late to back out. Masai basically has to sign Lowry in the offseason, and look to building by signing all-star FA's.

            Comment


            • #36
              I wouldn't blame Lowry for playing the market. However, he should be willing to take less to stay in Toronto, if we're building around him.

              Comment


              • #37
                GoingBig wrote: View Post
                I think there are corporate goals that have been achieved this year
                • got rid of Bargnani and ended that endlessly dead-end story
                • tried the Rudy Gay experience (6-12) - and calmly ended that BC gambling story with a good trade
                • the record since the trade is 24-13 (.649) and is a short-term success that has started to change the Raptors' league-wide story
                • DeRozan's rise to all-star reduces the story that the Raptors team is a place that never develops talent
                • Even with Lowry gone, if Ujiri wants to be totally short-term and just plug-in a top-level PG, the supporting cast (all-star DD, JV, TR) would make this 2nd-tier destination (not having to pay extra)
                • killed the 5-years-without-playoffs albatross that killed BC
                • Playoffs!!! Revenues + excitement + Raptors focus
                • if the Raptors end up in 6th position, there's good chance of 2nd round appearance


                The longer term step of going from .600~.650 team to contender has not been addressed - that's going to have to touch the current core of DD, JV, TR, Amir the Hamir
                All valid points. At the start of MU's year we had: A problem PG, a young-ish SG who still has potential, a black hole SF making way too much money, a good PF, and a high-potential C, no good backup PG, a backup young SG who was really dissapointing last year, no viable backup SF, a backup PF who was an albatrosss, and a backup PF who dissapointed in his last stop, with a clogged cap sheet that featured one bad contract and two horrendous ones- Fields, Bargs, Gay.

                This year we have: A PG who shed his attitude issues and was an all-star snub, a young all-star SG, a starting SF who turned it around from last year and has shown himself to be a viable 3-and-D guy, a good PF, a high-potential C, an above-average backup PG, no good backup SG, a good veteran backup SF, a backup PF who spreads the floor and has been a huge success, a backup PF whose toughness and grit have helped the team compete, an actual backup center, and a 3-point specialist at SF/PF. The cap sheet is much cleaner, with two bad contracts on the roster but no horrendous ones anymore, and more draft picks.

                This year has absolutely been a success. The real test is comparing this year and next year after next year's trade deadline.
                @Boymusic66

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                • #38
                  This season is already a success. Pretty much every single fan on here assumed the Raptors would be between the 7-10 seed in the East this year, and most didn't even think Playoffs was possible. We all follow a shit ton of basketball, and none of us predicted the East would be this bad, so I don't see why we should hold that against the Raptors when they're the one team in the East exceeding expectations.
                  We're playing .650 basketball since the trade and are 8-7 against the West since the trade. We're not a middling .500 team anymore, our record just doesn't quite show it thanks to the Rudy led team being bad.

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                  • #39
                    Though the point that what follows in the coming years will define success this year or not, has some validity, that will more depend on what's done in those years. There should be no question that this season is a success, whatever happens in the playoffs.

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                    • #40
                      salmon wrote: View Post
                      Though the point that what follows in the coming years will define success this year or not, has some validity, that will more depend on what's done in those years. There should be no question that this season is a success, whatever happens in the playoffs.
                      But wouldn't success depend on its continuity and taking steps forward ? What is the goal here ? You can not take a championship in one season BUT you can take the right steps toward building a team that can do that.

                      The problem with BC was that the continuity was never there. every season we had 8-9 new guys and new plans and ... But he still enjoyed the support of 90% of the fans here.

                      This is why I think the goal for next season should be defined ...

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                      • #41
                        GoingBig wrote: View Post
                        I think there are corporate goals that have been achieved this year
                        • got rid of Bargnani and ended that endlessly dead-end story
                        • tried the Rudy Gay experience (6-12) - and calmly ended that BC gambling story with a good trade
                        • the record since the trade is 24-13 (.649) and is a short-term success that has started to change the Raptors' league-wide story
                        • DeRozan's rise to all-star reduces the story that the Raptors team is a place that never develops talent
                        • Even with Lowry gone, if Ujiri wants to be totally short-term and just plug-in a top-level PG, the supporting cast (all-star DD, JV, TR) would make this 2nd-tier destination (not having to pay extra)
                        • killed the 5-years-without-playoffs albatross that killed BC
                        • Playoffs!!! Revenues + excitement + Raptors focus
                        • if the Raptors end up in 6th position, there's good chance of 2nd round appearance


                        The longer term step of going from .600~.650 team to contender has not been addressed - that's going to have to touch the current core of DD, JV, TR, Amir the Hamir
                        I really like this post ...

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I'll post this is in the game thread also but I think it speaks to some of the success of the team this year. There may be some bad teams but everyone gets to play against them.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Jamshid wrote: View Post
                            But wouldn't success depend on its continuity and taking steps forward ? What is the goal here ? You can not take a championship in one season BUT you can take the right steps toward building a team that can do that.

                            The problem with BC was that the continuity was never there. every season we had 8-9 new guys and new plans and ... But he still enjoyed the support of 90% of the fans here.

                            This is why I think the goal for next season should be defined ...
                            Defined by who? The fans? Seriously, there's an old expression that if a GM listens to the fans on how to manage his team, he soon becomes one of them.

                            Our GM's goals have been well documented, but not defined by year, as he knows there are too many variables, within and without, to be defining end-game goals over short periods. Much has been achieved this season. Let's see what happens in the playoffs, draft, and off-season, before making a "fan goals" for next season.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Jamshid wrote: View Post
                              But wouldn't success depend on its continuity and taking steps forward ? What is the goal here ? You can not take a championship in one season BUT you can take the right steps toward building a team that can do that.

                              The problem with BC was that the continuity was never there. every season we had 8-9 new guys and new plans and ... But he still enjoyed the support of 90% of the fans here.

                              This is why I think the goal for next season should be defined ...
                              We can't judge this year based on next year. It's just too nebulous, way too much can happen between now and then. We will literally have to wait until right before the beginning of next season before we can start setting expectations because we don't even know who will be on the team or who will be coaching the team. A tear down for draft picks could still happen in the offseason, which would drastically lower expectations. Also, the addition of a significant veteran talent via FA or trade could happen, which would obviously raise expectations.

                              The BC era was a failure because other than his first season he failed to deliver even close to preseason expectations, and preseason expectations were usually pretty damn low. He failed to get us in the playoffs when that was the goal, and he failed to get us a top pick when that was the goal. If we targeted the top pick in 2006, that's an even bigger fail since it was well known ahead of time that draft would suck.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                salmon wrote: View Post
                                Defined by who? The fans? Seriously, there's an old expression that if a GM listens to the fans on how to manage his team, he soon becomes one of them.

                                Our GM's goals have been well documented, but not defined by year, as he knows there are too many variables, within and without, to be defining end-game goals over short periods. Much has been achieved this season. Let's see what happens in the playoffs, draft, and off-season, before making a "fan goals" for next season.
                                Defined by the GM of course ... so what are they ? Is it to rebuild via draft ? Is it to compete this year and next year ? There are variables but don't you think the key is to stick to the plan ... The only plan that I have heard from the GM is to not be stuck in the middle and personally I think this team has talent level that can not compete at high level.

                                I am very curious to see what we will do this off season and in the draft. I am not sure if he will go after a big time FA or will try ti use guys like lowry and 2Pat and ... to get more draft picks ...

                                One thing for sure is that what ever MU does this summer and next year will be well supported by the fans in Toronto just like it was in BC era and that is because there is no well defined expatiation from this team within near future.
                                Last edited by Jamshid; Sun Feb 23, 2014, 03:58 PM.

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