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Article on the front page:Ujiri’s Quiet Deadline All About The Future

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  • #16
    The most important thing we know now, without a doubt, is that MU absolutely does not intend to tear it down and do a classic rebuild (at least this year). And if we are not getting our transcendent talent from the draft, then everything hinges on trades and free agent signings.

    I think MU and Leiweke are about to discover whether or not their ability to sell the city of Toronto to stars is realistic or not. Lowry is the first real test. Also important will be our success in the playoffs. If we can make it out of the first round, our appeal will go up considerably. A quick bounce will be devastating. This is yet another reason Casey makes me antsy.

    As for trades... I feel like most of the stars have assembled in their clusters for the next few years. Lebron/Wade/Bosh, Paul/Griffin, Durant/Westbrook, Harden/Howard, George/Hibbert. There are only a couple of youngish guys on their own who might be picked off. Rondo, Love. And if the price is deemed too steep?

    Then, as a wise Raptor once said, we out here like Michael Phelps!... treading water.

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    • #17
      Scraptor wrote: View Post
      As for trades... I feel like most of the stars have assembled in their clusters for the next few years. Lebron/Wade/Bosh, Paul/Griffin, Durant/Westbrook, Harden/Howard, George/Hibbert. There are only a couple of youngish guys on their own who might be picked off. Rondo, Love. And if the price is deemed too steep?
      I tend to agree with this analysis, except that one big name is missing from the list: Melo.

      I think at this point Melo isn't long for New York: the Knicks simply stink of failure and Melo is openly agonizing about the fact that he's dropping 40 points a night and the team just keeps losing. I think he can be signed away. I agree that Melo isn't a LeBron-like transformative talent - but he's a star-level player, pure and simple. And he's the only star-level player who isn't going to be tied to a franchise or almost certainly bound for another (like Love is for the Lakers).

      We have to consider the possibility that maybe, if we can get Lowry for a decent price, we should go after him. I'm not saying we necessarily should. But we have to consider it.

      Comment


      • #18
        TSF wrote: View Post
        Let's look at this realistically. Ross pulling a Lance (without the crazy/awesome personality?) is doable. DD? Highly unlikely. PG has been in the league for less time and has played elite defense during his rise. DD has never played elite defense. I don't think DD's ceiling is a top-5 talent building block. And Val is a possibility, but currently he's behind Hibbert's development curve. Hibbert's PPG, BPG, PER were all higher in his second year. Val isn't far behind, but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he becomes as good. It is possible though. And yes lowry is better than hill, but West is also a former all-star at the 4.

        I just don't see us having that one, amazing piece that makes up championship caliber teams yet. Val could be the next PG, or LJ, or AD, but I'm not certain he could be yet. And if he's not, we're the mid to late 2000's atlanta hawks.
        Val is younger NOW, then Hibbert was in his rookie season.
        The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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        • #19
          enlightenment wrote: View Post
          Val is younger NOW, then Hibbert was in his rookie season.
          Jonas was also supposed to be more ready now than Hibbert was due to playing in the pros over in Europe.

          I'm not saying he's far behind, or that it's impossible. Just that as is stands, second season to second season, JV is behind
          @Boymusic66

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          • #20
            TSF wrote: View Post
            Jonas was also supposed to be more ready now than Hibbert was due to playing in the pros over in Europe.

            I'm not saying he's far behind, or that it's impossible. Just that as is stands, second season to second season, JV is behind
            Look at Hibberts stats. Look at Vals stats. Val is 21, Hibbert was a rookie at 22. Val's trajectory is way beyond Hibberts currently. Defensively as well, it took Hibbert a while before learning not to foul and going straight up. I see that ability in Jonas, and at 21, it makes sense that he gets frustrated and makes a ton of silly fouls now. Jonas at 27 though will be a beast.
            The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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            • #21
              Ill make it easy:

              Player A: 27.6 MPG - 50.8% FG - 73.5% FT - 8.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.8 TO - 1.0 BPG - 3.2 PF - 10.5 PPG - 21 Yearsold

              Player B: 30.4 MPG - 45.7% FG - 75.4% FT - 7.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.9 TO - 2.5 BPG - 3.3 PF - 11.5 PPG - 27 Yearsold

              Which player do you think will turn out better?
              A = Val
              B = Hibbert
              The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

              Comment


              • #22
                enlightenment wrote: View Post
                Ill make it easy:

                Player A: 27.6 MPG - 50.8% FG - 73.5% FT - 8.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.8 TO - 1.0 BPG - 3.2 PF - 10.5 PPG - 21 Yearsold

                Player B: 30.4 MPG - 45.7% FG - 75.4% FT - 7.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.9 TO - 2.5 BPG - 3.3 PF - 11.5 PPG - 27 Yearsold

                Which player do you think will turn out better?
                A = Val
                B = Hibbert
                we know that hibbert's contribution isn't represented in the boxscore though.
                "Bruno?
                Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                He's terrible."

                -Superjudge, 7/23

                Hope you're wrong.

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                • #23
                  stooley wrote: View Post
                  we know that hibbert's contribution isn't represented in the boxscore though.
                  youre missing my main point. I only said that Val is likely to mature into a Hibbert-type player for us when I compared our talent level to the Pacers. The fact is, Val is younger than Hibberts rookie season and we really don't know HOW good he can get.

                  Leading back to my main post, I think we have a core that, when they reach their prime, is capable of being in Indianas position, possibly even better (in my opinion).
                  The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Val 2nd yr: ORtg-106, DRtg-103, WS/48-.118

                    Roy 2nd yr: ORtg-105, DRtg-106, WS/48-.098

                    Val is ahead of where Hibbert was by all 3 measures
                    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      enlightenment wrote: View Post
                      Ill make it easy:

                      Player A: 27.6 MPG - 50.8% FG - 73.5% FT - 8.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.8 TO - 1.0 BPG - 3.2 PF - 10.5 PPG - 21 Yearsold

                      Player B: 30.4 MPG - 45.7% FG - 75.4% FT - 7.6 RPG (2.9 ORPG) - 1.9 TO - 2.5 BPG - 3.3 PF - 11.5 PPG - 27 Yearsold

                      Which player do you think will turn out better?
                      A = Val
                      B = Hibbert
                      from jonas' rookie year to sophomore hes had a pretty big drop in FG% of more than 5%, is getting to the line less, shooting FT's at a worse rate, less assists, less blocks, MORE turnovers and only .2 more points per 36 min despite getting 2 more shots a game than his rookie year.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        TSF wrote: View Post
                        Jonas was also supposed to be more ready now than Hibbert was due to playing in the pros over in Europe.

                        I'm not saying he's far behind, or that it's impossible. Just that as is stands, second season to second season, JV is behind
                        I don't know how this misconception has been so persistent. He was not supposed to be more "ready", he was supposed to be more mature as a professional. He was always supposed to be raw as a player, as even physically he was not (and is not) finished maturing. It was more about mentality/character issues like approach, coachability, discipline, etc...And Jonas still excels in all those areas. He doesn't care about playing time, touches, being the star or franchise player, etc...he just cares about the wictories.

                        This is not the norm in all young players. Actually from any part of the world. I think Jonas benefited greatly from never being a local 'star' type of player (even with all the hype he had the last few years in Lithuania). As soon as he turned pro even in Lithuania, he was essentially a role player, and didn't have trouble embracing that. Lots of kids fall into this trap on both sides of the ocean. And whatever the reason, be it they don't put in the work, or don't adopt the right approach, or refuse to accept teaching from their coach, etc...They just never become all they could be as NBA players.

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                        • #27
                          iblastoff wrote: View Post
                          from jonas' rookie year to sophomore hes had a pretty big drop in FG% of more than 5%, is getting to the line less, shooting FT's at a worse rate, less assists, less blocks, MORE turnovers and only .2 more points per 36 min despite getting 2 more shots a game than his rookie year.
                          I'd attribute this to 2 things.

                          1) Jonas did a terrible job at improving his body and has become slower while not gaining much in terms of strength

                          2) Casey is a terrible coach and doesn't use JV anymore in PnR's and has completely destroyed JV's effectiveness on the offensive end

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                          • #28
                            stooley wrote: View Post
                            we know that hibbert's contribution isn't represented in the boxscore though.
                            Nor was it immediate, or even by his second year. Even as an anchor on D. He didn't really fully start to realize his potential until the last couple of years.

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                            • #29
                              magoon wrote: View Post
                              I tend to agree with this analysis, except that one big name is missing from the list: Melo.

                              I think at this point Melo isn't long for New York: the Knicks simply stink of failure and Melo is openly agonizing about the fact that he's dropping 40 points a night and the team just keeps losing. I think he can be signed away. I agree that Melo isn't a LeBron-like transformative talent - but he's a star-level player, pure and simple. And he's the only star-level player who isn't going to be tied to a franchise or almost certainly bound for another (like Love is for the Lakers).

                              We have to consider the possibility that maybe, if we can get Lowry for a decent price, we should go after him. I'm not saying we necessarily should. But we have to consider it.
                              I left Melo off because he turns 30 and is going to want to be paired with established stars, not a team as young as ours. The chances he comes here for his last major contract are slim to nil unless we can simultaneously snag a second star. Not to mention Melo and La La are more concerned about media exposure than the average NBA couple.

                              Further, Melo under Casey would be an absolute catastrophe. Melo is as pure an iso player as they come, and an iso-star under iso-lover Casey would mean a return to the heyday of Rudy Gay. All the ball-sharing would come to a screeching halt.

                              I see Melo going to an LA team or maybe getting convinced by Cuban to try his luck with Dirk.

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                              • #30
                                OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                                I'd attribute this to 2 things.

                                1) Jonas did a terrible job at improving his body and has become slower while not gaining much in terms of strength

                                2) Casey is a terrible coach and doesn't use JV anymore in PnR's and has completely destroyed JV's effectiveness on the offensive end
                                I agree with the 2nd. The change in how they're using him has been horrible for his effectiveness. It's good they make the point of looking for him more in the post this year. He still needs some postup reps to help his development. But they have almost completely taken out the p'n'r from his usage, and that would seem to be the biggest on-court reason for his struggles.

                                As for the first, I mostly agree. I wouldn't say he did a terrible job with his body, but that it clearly was poorly guided as he spent far too much time gaining weight (good and bad). And I wonder if part of that is that he is an eager worker, and overdid it trying to do something he was told he needed to improve (pretty sure Casey mentioned strength/size every time he spoke about JV at the end of last season). Hopefully if they emphasize quickness/conditioning for him this summer, he'll bust his ass trying to improve that.

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