Is There A Scenario -- Loul Deng edition

[Machine]

he was a all-star as voted by coaches this year.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...hooting-guards
second highest scoring average among 2guards

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...hooting-guards
sixth highest rebounding rate among 2 guards

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...hooting-guards
eighth highest assist rate among 2 guards

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...hooting-guards
12th in steals

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...hooting-guards
2nd in attempted free throws

going to need a lot of addition to make up for the subtraction here. i don't know what this kid can do to not be marginalized.

so what? he also averages the most mins among 2 guards too im sure. His scoring average means nothing when he gives a ton of possessions away on ridiculously stupid shots, hence his terrible %. When he is not on the floor you don't see many of those stupid shots from other players. the 2 guard position isn't exactly a stacked position in the NBA so those rankings aren't all that impressive. I'd rather someone who plays defense, can shoot 3's, and plays within the offense unless he is a legit star. However, I would miss the FTA's like i said earlier... if only he did that instead of shoot fade away contested long 2's

[Machine]

Meh. Some posters in this forum just don't like DeRozan.

Trading DeRozan straight up for Deng is just flat out STUPID. It's laughable. It's not even worth a debate.

i don't care that the trade is stupid or laughable... im not even arguing that we do that trade... all im saying is if deng played the 3 position on this team and ross played the 2 instead of derozan, i think we'd be a much better team on offense and defense lol... i really don't even get how anyone can argue against that. At this point in deng's career it doesn't really make sense and we still would not be championship contenders but the point is id love it if we had a different skill set at the 2. We cant live and die by Derozan's long 2 and pylon defense.

[imanshumpert]

Man DeRozan is really disliked around here...

Trade DeRozan for 15th pick and bad contracts.
Trade DeRozan for Dion Waiters and his 50% TS
Trade DeRozan for Deng (30 next season) who will cost 8 figures a season to re-sign

Thank God some of you aren't the GM of this team. Cleveland would laugh all the way to the bank if we offered them DeRozan for Deng. For all the complaining that people do about DeRozan's inefficiency. He's actually more efficient than Deng (53.0% TS compared to 51.7%) at much higher volume (18FGA to 14FGA and 23ppg compared to 15ppg). Not to mention DD is 5 years younger and on a cheaper deal than what it'll cost to sign Deng.

It's not just this season either, Deng has never been particularly efficient, despite the fact that he's been in a role player role his whole career. Has a career TS% of 52.6% (which coincidentally is the same as DeRozan's). It should be pretty telling that the Bulls actually got better when he was traded. Unlike DeRozan, he doesn't draw double teams and opposing defences don't game plan for him, so he doesn't really benefit the team offensively. He also isn't a good passer at all.

So... on topic --- no I wouldn't trade DeRozan for Deng, nor would I sign Deng even if we had the cap space. The only high-price wing player (obviously LBJ and Melo are not happening) I'd even dare to spend money on this offseason is Gordon Hayward. Might be able to get a bargain on him due to him having a down shooting season, and I'd expect his efficiency to ratchet back up as the 3rd or 4th option on our team as opposed to 1st in Utah.

[Miekenstien]

cap numbers are also not my forte but just throwing it out there that id give up derozan for deng in a heartbeat... too bad cavs have no use for him

i don't care that the trade is stupid or laughable... im not even arguing that we do that trade... all im saying is if deng played the 3 position on this team and ross played the 2 instead of derozan, i think we'd be a much better team on offense and defense lol... i really don't even get how anyone can argue against that. At this point in deng's career it doesn't really make sense and we still would not be championship contenders but the point is id love it if we had a different skill set at the 2. We cant live and die by Derozan's long 2 and pylon defense.

kind of looks like you're saying that exact same thing. even if it isn't by trading

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2014/...proved-player/
and this article that was on our front page explains well what demar brings to this team.

[Machine]

kind of looks like you're saying that exact same thing. even if it isn't by trading

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2014/...proved-player/
and this article that was on our front page explains well what demar brings to this team.

honestly i really was just bored and felt like responding to the original post. When the OP said he wanted to get deng and give up as little as possible i just decided to throw out derozan to show how much i truly believe he does not have the right skill set we need nor the basketball IQ. I know this would never happen and i should have known all the derozan lovers would turn it into a huge deal and i probably shouldn't have bothered to respond back. People on here turn a blind eye to so much of what he does (stupid shots) or doesn't do (defense) during a game that its sickening, especially when they jump on other players if they make the same mistakes derozan makes all game long. like shumpert says "thank god some of these people aren't the GM" lol im sure masai sees that derozan is not the answer for us and he'll do something about it. If derozan played more like a role player it would grind my gears much less, tho id still be upset that he doesn't even try on defense. Anyway, did not mean to start a huge debate about derozan, there is no winning this hard-headed discussion, was just a knee-jerk post to a hypothetical question. I didn't want deng when we were talking about trying to get him before Gay and i don't want him now. I do think he fits better with this team than derozan tho, hence the hypothetical reponse... sue me

[mcHAPPY]

Man DeRozan is really disliked around here...

Trade DeRozan for 15th pick and bad contracts.
Trade DeRozan for Dion Waiters and his 50% TS
Trade DeRozan for Deng (30 next season) who will cost 8 figures a season to re-sign

Thank God some of you aren't the GM of this team. Cleveland would laugh all the way to the bank if we offered them DeRozan for Deng. For all the complaining that people do about DeRozan's inefficiency. He's actually more efficient than Deng (53.0% TS compared to 51.7%) at much higher volume (18FGA to 14FGA and 23ppg compared to 15ppg). Not to mention DD is 5 years younger and on a cheaper deal than what it'll cost to sign Deng.

It's not just this season either, Deng has never been particularly efficient, despite the fact that he's been in a role player role his whole career. Has a career TS% of 52.6% (which coincidentally is the same as DeRozan's). It should be pretty telling that the Bulls actually got better when he was traded. Unlike DeRozan, he doesn't draw double teams and opposing defences don't game plan for him, so he doesn't really benefit the team offensively. He also isn't a good passer at all.

So... on topic --- no I wouldn't trade DeRozan for Deng, nor would I sign Deng even if we had the cap space. The only high-price wing player (obviously LBJ and Melo are not happening) I'd even dare to spend money on this offseason is Gordon Hayward. Might be able to get a bargain on him due to him having a down shooting season, and I'd expect his efficiency to ratchet back up as the 3rd or 4th option on our team as opposed to 1st in Utah.

Solid points in here.

Only thing I disagree with is signing Hayward. Raps need to use an exception or sign and trade.... Unless you want to renounce Lowry and lose for nothing.

[mcHAPPY]

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...014+free+agent

Based on suggestions in this thread, the link to former thread is appropriate. Money shot:

So what are you willing to sacrifice from this current team to get a $10+M per year player?
..... core guys?
..... depth?
..... draft picks?
..... any combination of the above?

[BigCamB]

Trade DeRozan for 15th pick and bad contracts.
Trade DeRozan for Dion Waiters and his 50% TS
Trade DeRozan for Deng (30 next season) who will cost 8 figures a season to re-sign

Agreed. All these trades just don't make any sense to me at all.

And as for Deng I never saw what the fuss was about. He's aging, played a ton of minutes. Chicago has improved with him gone. Pair him with DeRozan and offensively the shooting will be awful, pair him with Ross and the defense would be great but I don't think Ross will be ready to be a guy who has a huge increase in usage.

Ideally it would be nice to have a big small forward to defend those few monsters out there, but I think Derozan and Ross complement each other really well and perhaps the best bet would be to get a back up small forward with size to play in those few situations where it's vital. Unless of course it's for some real game changer, but Deng...nope.

[Scraptor]

Anyone who would take Deng over Derozan is absolutely delusional.

Deng now is not the Deng of four years ago. His last three seasons he has had a TS% lower than Demar this year, so complaining about Demar's efficiency is preposterous.

Deng has been ground down under Thibs and has played something like 14000 more minutes than Demar.

Demar's defense is vastly improved (check his PPP). I don't know what more people could ask for from a sub-$10mm all-star.

We need more star power, not a creaky fix like Deng. Deng is a BC-type patchwork addition. Better off keeping our powder dry for a better opportunity.

[mcHAPPY]

Anyone who would take Deng over Derozan is absolutely delusional.

Deng now is not the Deng of four years ago. His last three seasons he has had a TS% lower than Demar this year, so complaining about Demar's efficiency is preposterous.

Deng has been ground down under Thibs and has played something like 14000 more minutes than Demar.

Demar's defense is vastly improved (check his PPP). I don't know what more people could ask for from a sub-$10mm all-star.

We need more star power, not a creaky fix like Deng. Deng is a BC-type patchwork addition. Better off keeping our powder dry for a better opportunity.

Deng was suppose to help put Cleveland over the top.

Not. Even. Close.


The stat geeks have always been against Luol, too.

[planetmars]

I'd take Deng for DeMar if Cleveland threw in a couple of draft picks/prospects. But if it was a 1-1 swap than forget about it.

[imanshumpert]

Solid points in here.

Only thing I disagree with is signing Hayward. Raps need to use an exception or sign and trade.... Unless you want to renounce Lowry and lose for nothing.

That's why I said "bargain". I would only sign Hayward if we could get him for less than what DeRozan makes (not sure how likely that is), and I'm aware that we would need to make roster moves or do a S&T to do so. Was just saying that's the only high-price wing (aside from the superstars) that I have any interest in.'

That being said I probably wouldn't sign Hayward anyway. It doesn't put us over the top (a wing rotation of Hayward, DD, Ross would make us better but not a title contender).

I think honestly we just need to keep stockpiling desirable assets. The only way we're going to ascend from 1st/2nd round fodder to title contention at this point is by acquiring a superstar player; whether that's via trade or free agency. Let's make sure we have a ton of picks, desirable players and prospects so that if the opportunity ever arises to acquire a star we can pounce (see Brooklyn with DWill, Houston with Harden, etc).

[Machine]

Anyone who would take Deng over Derozan is absolutely delusional.

Deng now is not the Deng of four years ago. His last three seasons he has had a TS% lower than Demar this year, so complaining about Demar's efficiency is preposterous.

Deng has been ground down under Thibs and has played something like 14000 more minutes than Demar.

Demar's defense is vastly improved (check his PPP). I don't know what more people could ask for from a sub-$10mm all-star.

We need more star power, not a creaky fix like Deng. Deng is a BC-type patchwork addition. Better off keeping our powder dry for a better opportunity.

no stat can excuse how terrible demar is on defense. some games it feels like he is the cause of every basket against us. The guy sends rotations out of whack constantly and cant guard anyone. just watch the game, its obvious.

However, I do agree that we do not need a quick fix. But when the time comes to go all in, I do not expect demar to be here.

[imanshumpert]

i don't care that the trade is stupid or laughable... im not even arguing that we do that trade... all im saying is if deng played the 3 position on this team and ross played the 2 instead of derozan, i think we'd be a much better team on offense and defense lol... i really don't even get how anyone can argue against that. At this point in deng's career it doesn't really make sense and we still would not be championship contenders but the point is id love it if we had a different skill set at the 2. We cant live and die by Derozan's long 2 and pylon defense.

It's simple to argue against.

First of all DeRozan is a better offensive player than Luol Deng, period. There is no argument to be had here. DeRozan has a higher assist rate, lower turnover rate, and scores more efficiently with significantly higher volume. Not to mention he's much more versatile as a scorer than Deng is. Deng is mostly a catch and shoot player/a finisher, he doesn't create a lot of shots. DeRozan on the other hand has the ability to get to the rim and finish, score out of the high or low post, and is the 2nd most efficient pick and roll ball handler (PPP) in the league after Goran Dragic. Those pick and rolls/pops help create a ton of points for guys like Amir and 2Pat, and additionally can shift the defense to help free guys like Ross/Vasquez/Lowry for open 3s. So no, our offense would NOT get better if we traded DeRozan for Deng, it would get significantly worse. That's another guy standing around waiting for somebody to create an open look for him, and that would place the onus on Lowry to create scoring opportunities for the other 4 players on the floor at all times. He's not LeBron or CP3.

Additionally there is no reason whatsoever to double Luol Deng, while opposing coaches double DeRozan on a regular basis. I'm sure you can do math, so it should be easy to see how if DD gets doubled there are now only 3 defenders available to guard the other 4 Raptors players. This makes it easier to score and create offense.


As for the defensive end, I think Deng would only make our defense better against Miami (since we have no one that can guard LBJ one on one really). I actually don't think he would improve our team defensively much overall if at all.

While DeRozan is obviously not a shut-down defender, he doesn't need to be. Ross always guards the superior offensive wing on the other team, and most teams don't have 2 wings that are lethal scoring threats (the only one I can think of is Miami, maybe Brooklyn but PP and JJ are old now). As a result, DD is usually left guarding a role player. As you saw in that link that Miekenstein posted, that is actually why DeRozan is the best isolation defender in the league according to Synergy statistics. Swapping Deng for DeRozan to guard the Kyle Korvers, Mike Dunleavys, Trevor Arizas, MKGs and Iman Shumperts of the world isn't going to do a hell of a lot for us defensively. Even though Deng is a better perimeter defender, the marginal improvement that we'd get defending role players isn't worth what we're losing on the offensive end.

[JawsGT]

no stat can excuse how terrible demar is on defense. some games it feels like he is the cause of every basket against us. The guy sends rotations out of whack constantly and cant guard anyone. just watch the game, its obvious.

However, I do agree that we do not need a quick fix. But when the time comes to go all in, I do not expect demar to be here.

His defense isn't great, but it certainly isn't that bad. He is good in ISO, and a pretty good post defender too (although few try to post Demar) according to my eye test. He's not the best at getting around screens, and that does screw up the rotations. But you make it seem like he is Calderon, and he is not.