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Learning from the Pacers mistakes

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  • #31
    What i've learned from the Pacers is that you have to have "firepower" starting from your starting 5 all the way to your bench if you want to go deep in the playoffs.

    Pacers CAN'T score. And to me that's one of their main problems. They're lucky they're in the East actually. Because IMO, all the WC teams that got eliminated in the 1st rd(Mavs, GSW, Rox, Grizz) i think they all beat the Pacers in a 7 game series.

    If you look at the Heat and the Spurs. They're loaded from top to bottom.
    Mamba Mentality

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    • #32
      imanshumpert wrote: View Post
      In my opinion the Pacers are (well I guess, were) heavily overrated.

      People should stop pretending that Wade wasn't injured in the 2013 matchup. Having a superstar playing hurt, coupled with Indiana's ability to exploit Miami's greatest weakness with Roy Hibbert playing the best stretch of basketball of his career, was how they were able to push that series to 7.

      Without resting Wade and going all out, Miami is probably a 60+ win regular season team. Because they didn't gun for the top seed, Indiana was able to get it, which made this series closer than it really was. Had Miami had homecourt advantage, they win this series in 5 games.

      I think Indiana would've probably taken 7 to beat Brooklyn. They aren't as much better than us as CRF is making them out to be. They are also not title contenders, and would lose in the 1st round of the Western Conference playoffs. They are pretenders like we are.
      Honestly Roy Hibbert just isn't a very good player at all outside of being a good rim protector. He makes really stupid decisions on offense and he's slow and lethargic. The only thing he has going for him is his height. I'm so happy the Raps have a C like JV in the middle, he's already showing signs of being a great two way player.

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      • #33
        TRex wrote: View Post
        What i've learned from the Pacers is that you have to have "firepower" starting from your starting 5 all the way to your bench if you want to go deep in the playoffs.

        Pacers CAN'T score. And to me that's one of their main problems. They're lucky they're in the East actually. Because IMO, all the WC teams that got eliminated in the 1st rd(Mavs, GSW, Rox, Grizz) i think they all beat the Pacers in a 7 game series.

        If you look at the Heat and the Spurs. They're loaded from top to bottom.
        Whenever i watch Indiana on offense it looks like they have no fucking clue what they are doing. Its the same feeling i had with last years Raptor team.

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        • #34
          TRex wrote: View Post
          What i've learned from the Pacers is that you have to have "firepower" starting from your starting 5 all the way to your bench if you want to go deep in the playoffs.

          Pacers CAN'T score. And to me that's one of their main problems. They're lucky they're in the East actually. Because IMO, all the WC teams that got eliminated in the 1st rd(Mavs, GSW, Rox, Grizz) i think they all beat the Pacers in a 7 game series.

          If you look at the Heat and the Spurs. They're loaded from top to bottom.
          This. Fuck that chemistry noise with Indiana, that's not the issue it's an excuse.

          They had the TWENTY-THIRD ranked offense in the league this year. Gonna be pretty hard to score enough in the playoffs to win a title with that kind of paltry offense.

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          • #35
            Chemistry. Larry Bird took too much of a risk for depth that it cost them chemistry. Especially if the trade's a player for a player. Evan Turner was also rumored to be going to Miami but Miami backed out as it would mean trading away Udonis Haslem who is pretty much the heart and soul of Miami. It backfired too because Turner wasn't utilized and even ended up rotting on the bench when he could have played a significant role in the playoffs, particularly the Heat series. Granger was the leader of that team. He accepted his role that he stepped aside to give way for George as the new franchise player. If it was 2K, it would have worked perfectly, but it was the intangibles that cost them.

            Can't compare the Granger trade to the Gay trade. Gay, as talented as he is, did not fit the system. He and Derozan are pretty much the same player, even though Gay may have the edge in crunch time. And in the Gay trade, we finally got a decent bench consisting of Vasquez, Patterson and Chuck Hayes, who are much better players than AIRon Grey and Quincy Acy.

            Also, Paul George has been really exposed. Everyone was crowning him as the next face of the NBA, even putting him on Lebron and KD's level, which he is really not. He is a very good player, but he's not even on Melo's level yet. He belongs to the great class of young guns which include Lilard, Curry, John Wall, Kyrie, and Demar. Heck, Demar actually had a better year this year than him. And when they played head-to-head this year, Demar held his own or even outplayed him (maybe other than the last matchup when PG went on fire after fighting Salmons lol). It was David West who does the most damage on us whenever we play the Pacers.

            Roy Hibbert is also the most overrated player. Jonas has a much better upside. When the current tallest player rebounds as much as Andrea Bargnani, something's wrong. You can also see that unlike Jonas who is full of energy all the time, Hibbert is lazy who can't grind it out inside. He pretty much stole Al Jefferson's all-star spot. Also, the reason he's an interior "intimidator" is that he fucking 7'2"!

            Another of their problems is that their offense is just bad. Even Coach Casey has better offensive sets and plays than Vogel.
            We are very similar to them, as we do still play a traditional NBA lineup. And both teams like to grind it and fight. But other than that, I think our team has a better upside and potential. Indy has been there for many years now, and they thought this was their year. It's time for them to blow it up I think (maybe not a total rebuild, but get rid of some pieces and add new ones). Whereas, we are just getting started. The key now is resigning our FAs.

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            • #36
              Chemistry vs. talent isn't a black and white issue.

              The issue of possibly affecting chemistry should be factored into the outgoing value in any potential trade. If the incoming value is still deemed superior, than the trade is worthwhile.

              You don't trade a great team guy for a marginal improvement in 'talent' with a history of attitude problems or who's style doesn't fit. But if the upgrade moves the needle enough, then you pull the trigger.

              (tangent: wtf is talent, it's kind of a bogus word that many different people use in many different ways. would Green or Leonard even be considered 'talented' if they weren't placed in the right situation to flourish? can picking up bad habits on a poorly run team permanently decrease a player's talent? imo, it's hard to distinguish the difference between a player's talent and his on court impact, which is obviously affected by more than just in-born talent)
              "Bruno?
              Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
              He's terrible."

              -Superjudge, 7/23

              Hope you're wrong.

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              • #37
                To stay on topic: I think the lesson to learn from the Pacers is to take chemistry seriously, but also not to take it for granted.

                They had a great team culture going, and thought they could pull the Spurs/Heat thing and start some reclamation projects. Turns out Bynum and Turner were too much for them, never mind the fact that those very same players played the same position as their two most fragile starters, Hibbert and Stephenson.
                "Bruno?
                Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                He's terrible."

                -Superjudge, 7/23

                Hope you're wrong.

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                • #38
                  Well written post, lots of good ideas and I really hate myself for this but there were too many spelling mistakes in the OP for me to be able to concentrate lol. Anyone else?
                  A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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                  • #39
                    OptimalOptimist wrote: View Post
                    The Hawks were coached by Mike Woodson, for what's it's worth. And can you say that they had a clear cut identity? Also, behind their core, they didn't had anything interesting. The Raptors already have more depth than the Hawks did.

                    My points are that Raptors should continue doing things/transactions that respect the team philosophy/culture/identity that is heavily linked to DD and AJ. Role players and depth chart following that really matter.

                    Ross scored 51 points in a game that actually amounted to something (read not like Brewer).

                    You see flashes of potential as a deadly shooter, flashy passer and good ballhandler, not even mentioning athleticism. DD is a 23yo all-star who has improved significantly every seasons in the league. Remember the critics saying he should improve as a playmaker and as a rebounder? Well he did upgrade these numbers.

                    JV shows that he can be and become a really good 2 way center.

                    2Pat is actually a stretch four that can defend, how rare are these?

                    I think that we, as fans, tend to undervalue our own talent.
                    Well the Hawks had the 2nd best Oratg and 13th best Dratg their best year under Woodson, and 10th/12th the year before. We were 10th/10th. Not to mention they had Jamal Crawford and a rookie Jeff Teague coming off the bench.

                    Ross scored 51, but scored less than 10 points 40 times last year, because he tends to settle for 3s, doesn't attack the rim and can't manufacture free throws.

                    Derozan will turn 25 in August, he's not 23, and has played heavy minutes over 5 NBA seasons; he's a solid player but his upside at this point is limited. He's not going to suddenly become quicker or more creative.

                    JV has upside but I never said he didn't.

                    I think the opposite is true--we tend to overvalue our own players. When I asked the RealGM board if Bargnani was the cornerstone of our franchise, in 2012 after countless years of horrible play, almost 60% clung to the notion that he was our cornerstone. Some still believed he was Dirk 2.0 and refused to trade him for the likes of Tyreke Evans or even Rajon Rondo.

                    That's what I'm getting at. Optimism is great! But there's a blurry nebulous zone where optimism becomes delusion and we have to be careful not to confuse the two.

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                    • #40
                      I have read many times that the Spurs look for guys that have specific skill sets and attitudes that will fit within their team and system. That is why they are so successful. They find character guys who are skilled. And the system allows them to use their skill set. And then, after playing with each other for 2-3 years, those guys start to look REALLY good.

                      The Raptors don't have to go for wholesale changes. They do need and offensive/defensive system that everybody learns, and that the players have the skills to work within. When you have well run offensive and defensive systems, you have room for Matt Bonner and Marco Bellinelli, and Corey Joseph and Austin Daye. It's been six years since Boris Diaw averaged over 10 pts a game. You go down the list of the Spurs, and you aren't overwhelmed by individual talents outside of the top 4. Raps need to add talent. More importantly they need to play up to their ability...THAT is what the Spurs do.

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                      • #41
                        Puffer wrote: View Post
                        I have read many times that the Spurs look for guys that have specific skill sets and attitudes that will fit within their team and system. That is why they are so successful. They find character guys who are skilled. And the system allows them to use their skill set. And then, after playing with each other for 2-3 years, those guys start to look REALLY good.

                        The Raptors don't have to go for wholesale changes. They do need and offensive/defensive system that everybody learns, and that the players have the skills to work within. When you have well run offensive and defensive systems, you have room for Matt Bonner and Marco Bellinelli, and Corey Joseph and Austin Daye. It's been six years since Boris Diaw averaged over 10 pts a game. You go down the list of the Spurs, and you aren't overwhelmed by individual talents outside of the top 4. Raps need to add talent. More importantly they need to play up to their ability...THAT is what the Spurs do.
                        Thing is, we don't have an exceptional top couple guys headed by a really, really, REALLY exceptional guy in Duncan. It's easy to build that system when you have a top-15 player on the team for like 20 years.
                        @Boymusic66

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                        • #42
                          Seems as if lots of posts are how we should emulate the Spurs.

                          I don't think we have the parts to emulate the Spurs, nor do we have the coach.

                          We saw in this year's playoffs that when the D gets ramped up we aren't a ball-movement team. It'd be foolish to try to mimic a playing style without the correct talent, just as it would be dumb to drive your porche in an off-road race.

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                          • #43
                            Stevo wrote: View Post
                            Seems as if lots of posts are how we should emulate the Spurs.

                            I don't think we have the parts to emulate the Spurs, nor do we have the coach.

                            We saw in this year's playoffs that when the D gets ramped up we aren't a ball-movement team. It'd be foolish to try to mimic a playing style without the correct talent, just as it would be dumb to drive your porche in an off-road race.
                            The spurs didn't become so good at ball movement over night. They've been playing together for years and years. They know each others tendencies and trust each other fully
                            "Bruno?
                            Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                            He's terrible."

                            -Superjudge, 7/23

                            Hope you're wrong.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              stooley wrote: View Post
                              The spurs didn't become so good at ball movement over night. They've been playing together for years and years. They know each others tendencies and trust each other fully
                              Exactly, if it was easy to become the Spurs then everyone would. Even the small details of their organisation are hard to replicate, such as an owner that doesn't interfere and near-equal input on personal decisions by coach and GM. Then of course you have to find an all-time great coach and top 10 player ever to build around...

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                              • #45
                                Puffer wrote: View Post
                                I have read many times that the Spurs look for guys that have specific skill sets and attitudes that will fit within their team and system. That is why they are so successful. They find character guys who are skilled. And the system allows them to use their skill set. And then, after playing with each other for 2-3 years, those guys start to look REALLY good.

                                The Raptors don't have to go for wholesale changes. They do need and offensive/defensive system that everybody learns, and that the players have the skills to work within. When you have well run offensive and defensive systems, you have room for Matt Bonner and Marco Bellinelli, and Corey Joseph and Austin Daye. It's been six years since Boris Diaw averaged over 10 pts a game. You go down the list of the Spurs, and you aren't overwhelmed by individual talents outside of the top 4. Raps need to add talent. More importantly they need to play up to their ability...THAT is what the Spurs do.
                                I agree with you 100% about seeking out very specific skillsets, but the underlying debate lies in your mention of the Spurs top 4.

                                The foundation comes first. Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, and now Leonard. Then you can rely on role players exceeding their previous limits.

                                I think we definitely have one championship foundational player in Lowry and possibly another in Val. But I think we need at least one more major star before we can settle back on becoming a system team.

                                Look at the Bulls, for example. Great system, Thibs is a genius. Got a ton out of Augustin during the regular season. But when the postseason hits you need star power.

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