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Thread: Valanciunas needs to come off the bench.

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    Default Valanciunas needs to come off the bench.

    The 2-man combination of Ibaka and JV in the starting lineup is leading to by far our worst defensive lineups. They are so bad defensively, that even though they are decent on offense, these lineups are hugely negative. In fact they are the only two regularly used lineups that even have a negative net rating on this team.

    Just for reference to start here, the Cleveland Cavaliers as a team have the worst defensive rating in the league with 108.9. (A higher dRTG is worse for those who don't know, although I think everyone here knows, this is a pretty smart/well-informed forum).

    Lowry-DeRozan-Powell-Ibaka-JV = 111.5 dRTG and -3.4 netRTG
    Lowry-DeRozan-Anunoby-Ibaka-JV = 121.5 dRTG and -10.0 netRTG

    Ibaka and JV as a two man pairing have a 115 dRTG this season in 229 minutes played. It is the worst dRTG of any of our top 25 most used two man pairings this year. The next 3 worst defensively are DeRozan-JV (113.9), Lowry-JV (113.6), and Powell-JV (111.0). I think you can see the trend.

    The reality is the lineup needs to change, and the backcourt isn't the issue and neither are they going to be removed from the starting 5. Powell and Anunoby are the two best defenders on the team on the perimeter so one of them has to start at the 3 spot so that's non-negotiable. So the starting 1-2-3 will be Lowry/DeRozan/Anunoby or Powell for the season. What needs to change is the Ibaka-JV pairing. Now some will argue that it's Ibaka who needs to come off the bench. Despite the fact that JV is younger, already plays bench minutes (only playing about 20 minutes per game right now) and is less likely to affect team chemistry negatively by being moved to the bench in a 6th man role; I'll present the numerical evidence that he and not Ibaka should be benched.

    So if we're moving Ibaka or JV to the bench it'd be Siakam who comes into the starting lineup at the 4 spot with either of the former two playing the 5. The pairing of Siakam-Ibaka at the 4/5 has a 106.0 dRTG and +4.7netRTG so far this season. The pairing of Siakam-Valanciunas has only played 42 minutes this year, but it has a 110.3 dRTG and -5.3 netRTG, which is right around what it had last year in 591 minutes (109.8 dRTG and -4.0 netRTG). So clearly the Siakam-Ibaka lineup is better. In fact it's even slightly better on the glass with a 48.2 REB% compared to a 47.7 REB% so the myth that we desperately need JV's rebounding doesn't hold true there. Actually I want to talk about that a bit as well:

    JV is our best rebounder, but he doesn't actually make the team better on the glass overall when he's on the floor. The reason for that is that even though he wins his own individual rebounding battles, his poor defense often leaves several players out of position defensively, which means they also aren't even in position to rebound. This is why our defensive rebound rate is exactly the same with JV on the court (76.4%) as it is with him off the court (76.4%) this season.

    Building off that I want to discuss this notion that Ibaka would get bullied inside and worn down at center. I disagree. If anything, he's getting bullied at PF where he lacks the speed to handle most of the stretch 4s or combo forwards that teams play at those positions nowadays. That means getting killed off the drive, beaten to spots for spot-up or catch and shoot jumpshots, etc. It also means he gets pulled out of the paint where his best asset defensively (his ability to alter or block shots) is virtually eliminated; making him a net negative defensive player at power forward.

    Now at the draft combine, Ibaka measured at just under 6'11 in shoes with 7'3 wingspan and 9'3 standing reach. He was weighed in at 228, but that's when he looked like he does in the banner picture here: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Serge-Ibaka-1302/ not the ripped machine that he is now. I'd guess he's probably around 250lbs right now. Myles Turner who starts at center for the Pacers is just under 7'0 with a 7'4 wingspan and 9'4 standing reach, and much skinnier than Serge. Yet he is able to play center night in night out. Thon Maker starts at center for Milwaukee with a 9'2 standing reach and very skinny frame. Tristan Thompson is 6'8 with a 9'0 standing reach and starts at center for the Cavaliers. The Wizards start Gortat who's 7'0 with a 7'2 wingspan.

    I could keep going but the idea is that there aren't a huge number of these physically dominating centers that could cause Ibaka problems. There are a few, specifically: Drummond (7'0, 280lbs, 7'7 wingspan), Embiid (7'0 not sure about his current weight, 7'6 wingspan), Marc Gasol and DeMarcus Cousins who could cause him issues defensively and on the glass, but that's about it. That doesn't warrant starting Valanciunas, when there are so many more guys that cause him problems (like any center with the least bit of mobility or skill on offense to shoot the three, which is like 70% of them).

    So I propose the new starting lineup be: Lowry-DeMar-Anunoby-Siakam-Ibaka. The 10 man rotation would be completed with Miles, Powell, Valanciunas, Wright and Bebe or Poeltl. Here's how I'd handle the rotation on a minutes basis roughly, while trying to keep everyone's minutes about the same as they are now. I'm putting FVV in, but when Wright comes back he'd take his minutes.

    PG: Lowry (33)/FVV (15)
    SG: DeRozan (35)/Powell (13)
    SF: Anunoby (15)/Miles (23)/Powell (10)
    PF: Siakam (28)/Anunoby(12)/Ibaka (8)
    C: Ibaka (20)/Valanciunas(20)/Poeltl (8)

    I'd try to stagger the minutes in such a way that Ibaka is only playing PF when Poeltl is in at center. Additionally, JV would be on the floor for longer spurts, and we'd try to have him mainly play with the Lowry+Bench unit as much as possible and with Siakam or Anunoby at the 4 next to him. The minute distribution for the team would look like:

    DeMar: 35
    Lowry: 33
    Ibaka: 28
    Siakam: 28
    Anunoby: 27
    Miles: 23
    Powell: 23
    Wright/FVV: 15
    Poeltl/Bebe: 8

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Lotta typing to state the obvious. JV isn't making it happen at a top level in the NBA.

    Time to stop blaming everyone else for his shortcomings.

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    Nice post man and nice effort. Something clearly needs to be done. I think JV needs to be on the floor with CJ as much as possible and benefits from being around shooting. The other challenge with JV is he and Demar seem to be a poor match and both struggle on D. There's multiple core players that JV just struggles to share the floor with.

    Edit--the Lowry, Miles, JV trio has played 10 minutes together and has a Drtg of 90.1 and a net rating of 23. I'd like to see this more. To set him up for success I think he needs multiple shooters on the floor and no Ibaka, no Derozan. (And to be clear I mean this as a Lowry+bench unit)
    Last edited by Rudy Bargnani; Sat Nov 25th, 2017 at 08:30 AM.

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    Quote Rudy Bargnani wrote: View Post
    Nice post man and nice effort. Something clearly needs to be done. I think JV needs to be on the floor with CJ as much as possible and benefits from being around shooting.
    I disagree. You take away the ball from the best shooter to give JV more touches. Especially with Norm playing with the bench, who also is looking for his own shot.

    I don‘t like this rotation at all.
    27 minutes for Anunoby is way too much for his knee and for a rookie over a longer period.
    8 minutes for Poeltl? Then you better shop him. His style of play fits better with the bench than JV‘s.

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    Quote gk17 wrote: View Post
    I disagree. You take away the ball from the best shooter to give JV more touches. Especially with Norm playing with the bench, who also is looking for his own shot.

    I don‘t like this rotation at all.
    27 minutes for Anunoby is way too much for his knee and for a rookie over a longer period.
    8 minutes for Poeltl? Then you better shop him. His style of play fits better with the bench than JV‘s.
    OG has been playing 23mpg since becoming a starter. So idk why you think 27 is such a drastic change. And anyway it's just a rough rotation, you could always slightly increase Powell or Miles' minutes to give him more rest if needed.

    I agree Poeltl only getting 8 minutes is a problem. But until JV gets traded that's going to be the case. Poeltl has played about 10mpg for the past 6 games btw so it's not like it's a huge change from what's happening now.

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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    OG has been playing 23mpg since becoming a starter. So idk why you think 27 is such a drastic change. And anyway it's just a rough rotation, you could always slightly increase Powell or Miles' minutes to give him more rest if needed.

    I agree Poeltl only getting 8 minutes is a problem. But until JV gets traded that's going to be the case. Poeltl has played about 10mpg for the past 6 games btw so it's not like it's a huge change from what's happening now.
    Playing JV off the bench and moving Siakim next to Ibaka negates Pascsl main strength, running out in transition since he has to stay back to rebound. Makes him a useless stretch 4 on offense. Rather start JV and if he cant adjust yank him for Poetl, he needs to close out or the guards have to stop going under. Ibaka fits better as a shooter with the bench than JV as the roller until Wright comes back. Which ever they pick its better than doing nothing. If JV starting and Ibaka on the bench or vice versa doesnt work better to try now

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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    Playing JV off the bench and moving Siakim next to Ibaka negates Pascsl main strength, running out in transition since he has to stay back to rebound. Makes him a useless stretch 4 on offense. Rather start JV and if he cant adjust yank him for Poetl, he needs to close out or the guards have to stop going under. Ibaka fits better as a shooter with the bench than JV as the roller until Wright comes back. Which ever they pick its better than doing nothing. If JV starting and Ibaka on the bench or vice versa doesnt work better to try now
    Also OG - Pascal - Ibaka hurts spacing since there are only 2 corners. Having a roll man opens up the corners

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    Poeltl needs to play more than in the last six games. Don‘t get it why he has played only 3 minutes in the 2nd half yesterday with +15 in his 8 minutes in the first half. Raptors bench started their run after Poeltl was subbed in.

    Preferring JV as the bench C makes no sense to me, if they want Poeltl as their future C. They won‘t get back anything noteworthy for JV - regardless of wether he plays significant minutes or not.

    @Anunoby: 23 minutes are also too much for the whole season, I think. They should be more cautious with his knee. I had an ACL. You can play 2-3 months without problems, but if you don‘t care, you can completely destroy your knee. I know what I‘m talking about...unfortunately.

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    For Suns

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    Been saying this forever.

    JV is the Raptors' version of Greg Monroe and hopefully soon with a similar fate.

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    Probably the only thing I'll agree with you on. JV works well beside a quick and smart PF like Patterson but a slow/lazy guy like Ibaka beside him creates a whole lotta issues.

    But Casey never fixes the starting lineup because he wants to "keep the bench intact" lol...

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    https://www.thestar.com/sports/rapto...-nba-game.html

    “You know what’s in my head?” Valanciunas said to Lowry, loudly.

    Lowry appeared to nod sympathetically.

    “I’m trying to give it everything,” Valanciunas said. “You see what they do to me?”

    What “they” had presumably done, in the loss that unfolded earlier that evening, was yank Valanciunas from the game a few minutes into a disastrous third quarter, never to see the floor again. It was the third straight game Valanciunas hadn’t played in the fourth quarter. It was the third straight game he had played less than six minutes in the third quarter. And it was part of an early-season trend that hasn’t boded well for his place in the Toronto rotation
    Doesn't sound like he'll be thrilled to be benched.

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    My order of preference when it comes to handling JV is:

    1) trade him.
    2) keep him as a starter.
    3) have him come off the bench.

    He's basically become a bench player that starts.. only plays about 20 mpg and hardly in the second half. Personally I like the speed of our bench. JV will slow it down. Keep the pace low to start off the game and then run the opponent out of the building with our bench and continue that fast pace into the second half. Just need to play defense as well which we've failed to do against NY and Indiana recently.

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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    My order of preference when it comes to handling JV is:

    1) trade him.
    2) keep him as a starter.
    3) have him come off the bench.

    He's basically become a bench player that starts.. only plays about 20 mpg and hardly in the second half. Personally I like the speed of our bench. JV will slow it down. Keep the pace low to start off the game and then run the opponent out of the building with our bench and continue that fast pace into the second half. Just need to play defense as well which we've failed to do against NY and Indiana recently.
    That's all fine and dandy but you can't just ignore the numbers. The starters are literally playing league-worst defense. That's not sustainable and that's not a winning strategy.

    We've tried this nonsense before with Scola where we insisted on starting him all year with JV until we got to the playoffs with Indiana and they forced us to change it after going up 2-1. Milwaukee did the same to us last year where we were forced to move JV to the bench after going down 2-1.

    We're not always going to be able to come back from deficits in series and have the freedom to change our lineup midway and figure things out. The bottom half of the east is getting better. We need to figure out our best lineups NOW and use them instead of waiting or trying to baby certain players' egos.

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    Quote MixxAOR wrote: View Post
    https://www.thestar.com/sports/rapto...-nba-game.html



    Doesn't sound like he'll be thrilled to be benched.
    Could care less, not thrilled about him getting killed defensively.

    He'll get over it when he gets more touches as a bench player or in SAC, PHX or whereever we end up trading him too.

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    Quote Shaolin Fantastic wrote: View Post
    That's all fine and dandy but you can't just ignore the numbers. The starters are literally playing league-worst defense. That's not sustainable and that's not a winning strategy.

    We've tried this nonsense before with Scola where we insisted on starting him all year with JV until we got to the playoffs with Indiana and they forced us to change it after going up 2-1. Milwaukee did the same to us last year where we were forced to move JV to the bench after going down 2-1.

    We're not always going to be able to come back from deficits in series and have the freedom to change our lineup midway and figure things out. The bottom half of the east is getting better. We need to figure out our best lineups NOW and use them instead of waiting or trying to baby certain players' egos.
    I think you put too much emphasis on starting. Its early in the game and the game is not decided after the first. Again the biggest centers in the league typically start. The game usually starts off slow as well as guys get into a rhythm. I don't see a future for JV on this team, but I still think him starting is the right call.

    Scola is not JV. Scola sucked. JV can actually be pretty good. And the Milwaukee series had nothing to do with JV but everything to do with Powell.

    As for ego's.. I doubt JV has an ego. The guy seems like such a team player to me.

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    I'm not sacrificing our best lineups just for JV. Keep starting him and have quick sub ready. Right now the only value JV has is that he is starting center on a perennial 50 win team. JV has pretty much become a glorified Zaza for Raps. A nice screen setting big and rebounder. Keep starting and Masai will unfortunately have to sell low on him at the deadline.

    I personally would want him to be packaged for DJ but, it seems more by day that the best you could get for him is Mirotic. Which I'm fine with. Mirotic bring that other 35+ 3pt shooter we need.

    When the Bulls traded Gibson, it opened up a spot for Mirotic to start and provide some floor spacing for the starting unit. That spacing helped the overall production (+1.8 net rating with Gibson starting and +8.2 with Mirotic), but with so many ball-dominant players already in that lineup, it relegated Mirotic to a spot-up shooter.

    In fact, 42.1 percent of Mirotic’s offense came from spot-up shooting and below average usage (19.8) meaning he did not serve as an offensive focal point so much as an outlet for kick-outs.

    For the Bulls, extra 3-pointers were certainly not a bad thing, and based on where Mirotic is shooting, it’s no surprise that he is an analytics-favorite. Famously, Mirotic had an astronomical free throw attempt rate at 45.5 percent, while his 3-point attempt rate was 50.2 percent. This year, his free throw attempt rate dropped to 20.9 percent and his 3-point attempt rate increased to 60.3 percent. This explains his lack of production — with lower usage and more spotting up (because players like Jimmy Butler, Dwyane Wade and Rajon Rondo used the ball so much), Mirotic was unable to be used as the versatile offensive weapon he is because he was the only player that could provide floor spacing.

    Defensively,*Mirotic has a reputation as an incapable defender, but that could not be further from the truth. According to Synergy, Mirotic ranks in the 95th percentile in half court defense, allowing only 0.769 points per possession. This matches my eye test. Mirotic has great awareness and knows how to position himself on defense to support the backside, help on drives and contest kick-outs. He is also a phenomenal pick-and-roll container, ranking in the 85th percentile. While he is made to look silly against the speediest point guards, he does the subtle*things right.

    All things considered, Mirotic was very bad during the first half of the year, and got extremely hot after the the All-Star break. The depths of his cold streaks are like a Siberian winter, but when he heats up, it makes you realize the how productive a player he could be if he was consistent.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I'm not sacrificing our best lineups just for JV. Keep starting him and have quick sub ready. Right now the only value JV has is that he is starting center on a perennial 50 win team. JV has pretty much become a glorified Zaza for Raps. A nice screen setting big and rebounder. Keep starting and Masai will unfortunately have to sell low on him at the deadline.

    I personally would want him to be packaged for DJ but, it seems more by day that the best you could get for him is Mirotic. Which I'm fine with. Mirotic bring that other 35+ 3pt shooter we need.

    When the Bulls traded Gibson, it opened up a spot for Mirotic to start and provide some floor spacing for the starting unit. That spacing helped the overall production (+1.8 net rating with Gibson starting and +8.2 with Mirotic), but with so many ball-dominant players already in that lineup, it relegated Mirotic to a spot-up shooter.

    In fact, 42.1 percent of Mirotic’s offense came from spot-up shooting and below average usage (19.8) meaning he did not serve as an offensive focal point so much as an outlet for kick-outs.

    For the Bulls, extra 3-pointers were certainly not a bad thing, and based on where Mirotic is shooting, it’s no surprise that he is an analytics-favorite. Famously, Mirotic had an astronomical free throw attempt rate at 45.5 percent, while his 3-point attempt rate was 50.2 percent. This year, his free throw attempt rate dropped to 20.9 percent and his 3-point attempt rate increased to 60.3 percent. This explains his lack of production — with lower usage and more spotting up (because players like Jimmy Butler, Dwyane Wade and Rajon Rondo used the ball so much), Mirotic was unable to be used as the versatile offensive weapon he is because he was the only player that could provide floor spacing.

    Defensively,*Mirotic has a reputation as an incapable defender, but that could not be further from the truth. According to Synergy, Mirotic ranks in the 95th percentile in half court defense, allowing only 0.769 points per possession. This matches my eye test. Mirotic has great awareness and knows how to position himself on defense to support the backside, help on drives and contest kick-outs. He is also a phenomenal pick-and-roll container, ranking in the 85th percentile. While he is made to look silly against the speediest point guards, he does the subtle*things right.

    All things considered, Mirotic was very bad during the first half of the year, and got extremely hot after the the All-Star break. The depths of his cold streaks are like a Siberian winter, but when he heats up, it makes you realize the how productive a player he could be if he was consistent.

    https://theathletic.com/59338/2017/0...ikola-mirotic/

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    I don't know about the whole Mirotic thing but I do agree with just continuing to start JV but have a very quick hook for him when things aren't going well. I feel bad because its not always Jonas' fault but you gotta do what you gotta do
    I relish negativity and disappointment. It is not healthy. Somebody buy me a pony.

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    Quote MixxAOR wrote: View Post
    https://www.thestar.com/sports/rapto...-nba-game.html



    Doesn't sound like he'll be thrilled to be benched.
    Shitty. He should have been traded years ago. Not only did we mismanage his development by turning him into heavy big, we mismanaged his value as an asset by not moving him when he had value.

    The fact that he's openly saying this stuff to Kyle in front of reporters means we're probably reaching a breaking point. The guy has been a good soldier and kept his mouth shut for a long time.

    Not even sure where we can send him. The two teams most in need of bigs are our main rivals: Cleveland and Boston. What a mess.

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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Shitty. He should have been traded years ago. Not only did we mismanage his development by turning him into heavy big, we mismanaged his value as an asset by not moving him when he had value.

    The fact that he's openly saying this stuff to Kyle in front of reporters means we're probably reaching a breaking point. The guy has been a good soldier and kept his mouth shut for a long time.

    Not even sure where we can send him. The two teams most in need of bigs are our main rivals: Cleveland and Boston. What a mess.
    Favourite part of the article:

    "The evolving NBA landscape doesn’t favour the likes of Valanciunas, who’s never been known for his fleetness"

    Actually Dave Feschuk, that's exactly what he was known for as a prospect and young player when we drafted him. He was a quick C who got up and down the floor faster than most bigs. We asked him to put on weight to bang and work on his low-post game, and guided him away from all his best physical/skill tools which would actually have fit in perfectly in today's league.

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