Everything Dwane Casey

[Chr1s1anL]

There is a large cohort on this board who can't get their heads around the success that this team has had with Casey as coach and Demar as one of the lead players (add in Lowry for some folks, due to his proclivity to 'only pass to Demar', engage in hero ball, etc.). Simply can't get their heads around it, because they can't explain the objective success through the subjective lens through which they view the game. Has little to do with results, team progression, continuity or anything else. It's an aesthetic/emotional argument ('I don't like iso-ball, therefore Casey and Derozan are shit', for example). Rationality seldom enters the equation.

+1,000,000

[Chr1s1anL]

Basically they'd rather risk losing their way than enjoy winning Ujiri's way.

Pretty much.

[Gambino]

I don't get what's so 'bad' about our play style. Obviously we could move the ball better, but I don't think it's a necessity that we start taking out pick and rolls and one on ones entirely. Particularly if Jonas gets more involved in the post (which seems to be a focus of the org right now, hopefully that comes to fruition), we're going to be attacking offensively in very efficient ways; using the post, pick and roll and drives to get baskets at the rim and draw fouls. Why can't our thing be dominating the paint?

And it's not like I'm saying don't shoot threes obviously, but you focus your offense on attacking the basket in those different ways and then surround that with outside shooting and you've got a really potent attack.

I also think with a healthy Carroll and upgrade on Scola at the 4 we can work our way to being a top 5 defense.

[Chr1s1anL]

I don't get what's so 'bad' about our play style. Obviously we could move the ball better, but I don't think it's a necessity that we start taking out pick and rolls and one on ones entirely. Particularly if Jonas gets more involved in the post (which seems to be a focus of the org right now, hopefully that comes to fruition), we're going to be attacking offensively in very efficient ways; using the post, pick and roll and drives to get baskets at the rim and draw fouls. Why can't our thing be dominating the paint?

And it's not like I'm saying don't shoot threes obviously, but you focus your offense on attacking the basket in those different ways and then surround that with outside shooting and you've got a really potent attack.

I also think with a healthy Carroll and upgrade on Scola at the 4 we can work our way to being a top 5 defense.

I don't get whats so bad about it either.

[ball4life]

I don't get whats so bad about it either.

For one, its ugly to watch my team play like that and it's easy for other teams to scout when our offense reverts to ISO ball after our first action fails. so yea.. there's no question our offense needs to move the ball more often than once in a possessions.

And no, we didn't get to ECF because we didnt move the ball... we got there DESPITE not moving the ball partly because the two teams we won against wasn't interested in doing it either.

[Deino]

I don't get whats so bad about it either.

Even though there is nothing wrong with riding any sort of in game advantage over opponents (including iso plays based on players strenghts),however diversity is very essential especially in the playoffs,and running an inside out game with JV with reliable shooters, slashers should be introduced as a CONSISTANT part of the game but nonetheless helps the cause toward establishing a complete reliable system.

[Chr1s1anL]

For one, its ugly to watch my team play like that and it's easy for other teams to scout when our offense reverts to ISO ball after our first action fails. so yea.. there's no question our offense needs to move the ball more often than once in a possessions.

And no, we didn't get to ECF because we didnt move the ball... we got there DESPITE not moving the ball partly because the two teams we won against wasn't interested in doing it either.

Its so easy to scout and stop that it took the best team in the conference to beat us.

[jimmie]

For one, its ugly to watch my team play like that

You could have stopped there, since that's really the crux. The rest is conjecture and opinion. The objective results tell a different story.

Whether you think they got to the ECF because of, or in spite of, anything is beside the point. They DID get to the ECF. They DID exceed all reasonable expectations for this roster at the beginning of the year. They DID do all of that with their 2 best players playing well below their season production, and without their starting C, and with their key off-season SF acquisition just returning from a season-long injury.

Those are subjective facts. You can ignore that and pretend that all of this is unsustainable, the 56 wins were a freak accident, or whatever. But it's been sustainable and on an upward curve since Casey arrived.

[ball4life]

Its so easy to scout and stop that it took the best team in the conference to beat us.

Did our offense performed the way it did in regular season in the playoffs? Did our main cogs performed the way they did in regular season in playoffs? Did our basketball team played the way they did in regular season in the playoffs?

No. And that is a sign of easy scouting.

So lets not compare our accomplishments relative to other lesser teams and lets look to what we can do to improve ourselves to beat the team that beat us last year.

oh look at me I made it to the ECF therefore I am good is such a sorry story.

[ball4life]

You could have stopped there, since that's really the crux. The rest is conjecture and opinion. The objective results tell a different story.

Whether you think they got to the ECF because of, or in spite of, anything is beside the point. They DID get to the ECF. They DID exceed all reasonable expectations for this roster at the beginning of the year. They DID do all of that with their 2 best players playing well below their season production, and without their starting C, and with their key off-season SF acquisition just returning from a season-long injury.

Those are subjective facts. You can ignore that and pretend that all of this is unsustainable, the 56 wins were a freak accident, or whatever. But it's been sustainable and on an upward curve since Casey arrived.

I didn't say what we did in last season was fluke nor did I try to take any credit away from the team. We did good. but how do we get better?

Our offense needs adjustments because it is too ISO centric. Because it is ISO centric I feel that it is harder for other guys to have an impact offensively. Standing around catching and shooting off of dribble penetration once in a while can not be the only way for other guys to contribute. And if that's all they are doing how do we know what else they can provide to the team. For example: imagine Draymond Green in this team. If we are not going to ISO him he is going to spot up and shoot from the corner. would he have developed to be the player he is now if he were a Raptor?

It's just my opinion and my belief. you can laugh at it call it subjective or ignore it.

[planetmars]

Casey deserves criticism.. he's not perfect.. (starting Scola for over 75 games.. really??)

But this franchise has been horrible. I don't know how long some of you have been watching this team.. but it's been painful. We've had stars come and go, but the team has been consistently bad. Even Vince could only muster one 5 game series win.. and that team wasn't very good either (47 wins, 5th seed in the East.. like so mediocre.. that's Boston without the cap space or draft picks - and that was our peak!).

I don't know if it was Masai, Casey, Rex, Greer, Lowry, or all of them..or if the eastern conference was just bad and the Raptors had some luck.. but it doesn't matter. The team excelled. I had them pegged for 45 wins. I thought the East was going to be better because in 2014-2015 there were lots of injuries to big names.. but the Raptors won not just 50 games but 56. They almost lost to Indiana but didn't. They almost lost to Miami but didn't. They had come court in the 7th game in both series because they earned it. They took two games from Cleveland at home. Not one.. but two. Sure they got their asses smacked in their 4 losses.. but they still won 2 more games then either Detroit or Atlanta.

This was a very successful year. Best Raptor year ever, and second place wasn't even that close. Casey deserves some credit for it. He got them playing hard.

They made it past goal #1.. get through round 1. It was tough but they did it. Monkey off their back. They over achieved I guess.. but that's now the bench mark.

The next goal is sustaining it.. not exceeding it (exceeding it requires transcendent talent, or LeBron retiring (whatever comes first)). Can they get back to the ECF again? Can they do it without having to play 14 games? That's what will keep Casey here. If he can do it again he deserves to still be here.

It may not be sustainable.. but that's something to worry about next year and not now. Right now it was smart to bring back Casey.

[OldSkoolCool]

Looking at the teams that had the most drives per game this season, here are the most comparable teams to use stylistically (slashing guard offence):

PHI: 37.1 drives, 96.6 ORTG
TOR: 36.0 drives, 107.0 ORTG
NOP: 32.0 drives, 103.2 ORTG
ATL: 31.1 drives, 103.0 ORTG
UTA: 30.8 drives, 103.1 ORTG
SAC: 30.0 drives, 103.3 ORTG

That's all the teams with 30+ drives per game. Note how every team outside the 76ers has a practically identical ORTG. Except us, we are head and shoulders above the pack.

LeBron James does it better

Westbrook does it better

Wall does it better

CP3 does it better

Curry does it better

Do you seriously think that we have the personnel to effectively run an offense with a large portion of our plays as such? Do you think DD and KLoe can compete with the above as ball handler scorers/passers? Do you think we are good enough at it to compete with the top teams? The PnR is the most used part of basketball...and we are not good enough at it to be the best in the league in the playoffs.

Filtering for number of attempts does not refute my statement that we do not do it as well as other teams. Generally speaking, ball handler scoring across the league is not that efficient of a play. Most teams utilize it to set up their offense, whereas it is our offense. Not cool

Our PPP for ball handler is pretty good (2nd at 0.90 PPP), but we used it WAY too much (1341 FGAs). 0.90 PPP is not great.

What we really struggle with is utilizing our roll man (5.4% of our offense). 1.06 PPP is tied with 5th in the NBA, but we only used them 382 times! That's 4th worst in the NBA. That's shitty balance favoring the drastically lower efficiency offensive style. Same with cuts (rarely used).

As an aside, looking at that list, clearly it is generally not great company to be in to have an offense overly reliant on drive and kicks. They are a useful tool for creating shots, but should not be the backbone for actually scoring. Balance is everything...literally (unless you're GS)

[Deino]

Casey deserves criticism.. he's not perfect.. (starting Scola for over 75 games.. really??)

But this franchise has been horrible. I don't know how long some of you have been watching this team.. but it's been painful. We've had stars come and go, but the team has been consistently bad. Even Vince could only muster one 5 game series win.. and that team wasn't very good either (47 wins, 5th seed in the East.. like so mediocre.. that's Boston without the cap space or draft picks - and that was our peak!).

I don't know if it was Masai, Casey, Rex, Greer, Lowry, or all of them..or if the eastern conference was just bad and the Raptors had some luck.. but it doesn't matter. The team excelled. I had them pegged for 45 wins. I thought the East was going to be better because in 2014-2015 there were lots of injuries to big names.. but the Raptors won not just 50 games but 56. They almost lost to Indiana but didn't. They almost lost to Miami but didn't. They had come court in the 7th game in both series because they earned it. They took two games from Cleveland at home. Not one.. but two. Sure they got their asses smacked in their 4 losses.. but they still won 2 more games then either Detroit or Atlanta.

This was a very successful year. Best Raptor year ever, and second place wasn't even that close. Casey deserves some credit for it. He got them playing hard.

They made it past goal #1.. get through round 1. It was tough but they did it. Monkey off their back. They over achieved I guess.. but that's now the bench mark.

The next goal is sustaining it.. not exceeding it (exceeding it requires transcendent talent, or LeBron retiring (whatever comes first)). Can they get back to the ECF again? Can they do it without having to play 14 games? That's what will keep Casey here. If he can do it again he deserves to still be here.

It may not be sustainable.. but that's something to worry about next year and not now. Right now it was smart to bring back Casey.

You're correct,this year was a success,with many team records(regular season and playoffs),and I love the fight the Raps gave all season(specially in the playoffs) I can safely say the Raptors fans enjoyed and appreciated all that and each one should get deserved credit according to his performance/input (coaching staff, team members,Ujiri),however it wasn't all perfect in many aspects(you mentioned starting Scola 75 games),you could also add rotation issues,game preparations(Casey admitted once he did not do it well), in game decisions(matching up to different lineups) along with an offensive system(besides ride or die with...) that should add some reliable options to it.
At this point I gotta say not only some talents on this team but also lion hearts( like) were behind playoffs success and Biyombo JV Lowry Derosan are topping the list among others(in each game somebody raised to the challenge) which is awesome.
I'm saying this now(not because i'm anti Casey) because(next year) I really don't wanna wait 75 or more games for Casey to realize there's a glaring hole(s) in his system that needs fixed.

[Scraptor]

You could have stopped there, since that's really the crux. The rest is conjecture and opinion. The objective results tell a different story.

Whether you think they got to the ECF because of, or in spite of, anything is beside the point. They DID get to the ECF. They DID exceed all reasonable expectations for this roster at the beginning of the year. They DID do all of that with their 2 best players playing well below their season production, and without their starting C, and with their key off-season SF acquisition just returning from a season-long injury.

Those are subjective facts. You can ignore that and pretend that all of this is unsustainable, the 56 wins were a freak accident, or whatever. But it's been sustainable and on an upward curve since Casey arrived.

Thats why I hate the "it's ugly to watch" argument; it distracts from the argument that Caseyball is not championship-caliber basketball.

Objectively the facts are:
-we lost twice to a lower-seeded team, getting swept once
-we got taken to a 7th game by Paul George and a bunch of scrubs
-we got taken to a 7th game by a team missing arguably its two best players in Both and Whiteside
-we won two games against a team whose coach has half a season's experience, a team which is getting taken to the woodshed by an actual championship-quality contender

I definitely agree that Caseyball can lead to sustainable regular season and first/second round success. But I do not believe Caseyball can lead to late round playoff success year in and year out. This is the first year we've had playoff success under his leadership. That doesn't prove sustainability or an upward curve; this year could very well be lightning in a bottle. One data point doesn't make a trend.

[OldSkoolCool]

Thats why I hate the "it's ugly to watch" argument; it distracts from the argument that Caseyball is not championship-caliber basketball.

Objectively the facts are:
-we lost twice to a lower-seeded team, getting swept once
-we got taken to a 7th game by Paul George and a bunch of scrubs
-we got taken to a 7th game by a team missing arguably its two best players in Both and Whiteside
-we won two games against a team whose coach has half a season's experience, a team which is getting taken to the woodshed by an actual championship-quality contender

I definitely agree that Caseyball can lead to sustainable regular season and first/second round success. But I do not believe Caseyball can lead to late round playoff success year in and year out. This is the first year we've had playoff success under his leadership. That doesn't prove sustainability or an upward curve; this year could very well be lightning in a bottle. One data point doesn't make a trend.

Hypothetically, if we faced off against Portland and how they played in this years playoffs, they would have swept us.

The Playoff East is hilariously bad compared to the Playoff West, so to be taken to two game sevens against Indiana, and Miami (who played Winslow at C [seriously])? That's downright pathetic with the roster we had.

The difference was coaching and DD.

Regular season it does work, when teams are at half throttle and scouting reports are more general. Playoffs are a different animal....and Casey, despite his ring, doesn't get it.

The best way I can describe Casey's coaching is over-structured. It is very mechanical and he hasn't taught players how to read and react to defenses. That's poor for NBA caliber coaching.