Can we stop blaming DD now for taking away Ross/JV's opportunity?

[JawsGT]

Yea the excuses for JV is just getting ridiculous now but I'll let you guys argue. He needs to get his shit together. He's too soft and fragile mentally right now. What he needs to be focusing on is defense and rebounding and stop worrying about scoring. His help defense is horrible and if someone is fighting him for a rebound he can't get it. Yes the guards get beat and blah blah blah but this is the NBA and everyone gets beat. He needs to rotate better and stop finding himself in no mans land constantly. He also needs to stop missing all these chippies and flailing his arms like a mad man always looking for calls. Same thing goes for Ross. I have seen VERY little improvement from either of them and that has more to do with them than it has to do with Casey. You earn your minutes in this league and if you aren't going to produce then you sit. Simple. Casey is a defense first coach and both of them are struggling on that end. Yes we need to develop them but we also need to win games. Learn to produce in the minutes you are given and then maybe you will get more. To me that's a simple concept. But hey to each his own

And don't get me wrong, the blame for the teams struggles right now definitely isn't all on JV. The whole team is playing like shit defensively and needs to rebound better. But you're big man is a BIG part of your team having a good defense because in this league everyone gets beat. If your anchor down low can't rotate correctly and make the right reads in the pick and roll etc. you are going to have a tough time stopping anyone. But I have faith he will get it in the future because it does take time. He just needs to stop letting his offense dictate his defense. If he focuses more on defense and rebounding and not so much on getting touches and making plays offensively he would be much better off at this point in his career. But it's just not how young players are wired sadly.

We are not a crappy team (even though we've looked like one for a good five games now lol) so we can't just spoon JV touches all the time and let him make mistake after mistake after mistake. We are trying to win games and well. So when JV is struggling I'm sorry but Amir or Pattern or Johnson or even Chuck are going to have to take his minutes. I think Casey dictates JV minutes based on his D and not his O. So when he's constantly missing rotations he gets taken out because the other guys I named do a MUCH better job defensively most nights. They've been in the NBA longer so they just read situations a lot better. And that isn't a knock on JV because he's extremely young and needs time. I just don't think he has to be getting many touches and getting a lot of minutes to learn and develop. It would actually help his development more if he didn't let those things like touches and minutes affect him and he just focused on the little things. But our team definitely needs to look for him more in the pnr. We need to look for all our bigs more. It's just so sad that NONE of our perimeter players are good at it. I thought that was such a simple play watching Calerdon for so many years but clearly it's not as easy as one would think. It definitely makes me appreciate Jose much more that's for sure. Oh well I've said my piece on the whole JV thing. I know most of you won't agree but that's fine by me.

These are good posts. All the best defences in the league are anchored by a great defensive big man. It's a necessity because no team has good enough perimeter defence to keep opposing guards and wings out of the paint or from driving. This is the NBA, and just about every team has perimeter players that can attack and get inside. JV needs to realize that his greatest impact in any given game will be defensively. Regardless of his offensive potential, or offensive opportunity in any given game, his greatest possible impact will always be on the defensive end. I certainly don't want a weak defensive C that can score. I'd rather have a strong defensive C that can't score honestly. Better still, a strong defensive C that can score, and that's what JV can become but he will not get there until he learns to be a better defender and rebounder. And that's on him. He's not there mentally as many have pointed out. But he has to accept that he is personally responsible for anchoring this teams defence. He has to be there in that regard night in and night out or he will be replaced with guys off the bench that will accept that responsibility. He can't let fouls or lack of opportunity offensively affect his focus on the other side of the ball. Even if he is a 20+ ppg player on 12-15 FGA, his greatest impact night in and night out will still be on the defensive end. That's the way the league is now, any team that wants to be a great team/contender needs a big man that can have a major impact defensively.

I don't think the answer to this issue is to give him more chances offensively. I mean, I do agree that he should be utilized more off the PnR and have been arguing as such since last season. Same goes for all our bigs. Our guards just don't do a good enough job of that. But if giving him more touches on the offensive side is the only way to get him engaged defensively, then that is a big problem IMO. That's not the approach to the game he should be taking. He needs to understand and accept that some games he will not have as many chances to score, but that every game he will an opportunity to defend and rebound and be a major impact player that way.

[JawsGT]

As for Ross...well he just doesn't seem like a particularly hard worker. He isn't tough mentally, and like JV, gets deflated easily. It's almost like he isn't ready to accept the challenge of being more than he has so far. He is the polar opposite of Demar in that regard. Granted, Demar was developed under different circumstances than Ross is presently, and given more freedom to develop his game during his rookie contract than Ross is. Guess what...too f'ing bad. We are a pretty damn good team and no one wants to sacrifice that success to watch Ross and/or JV play half-ass basketball. He should be ecstatic he doesn't have to play his rookie contract out in a losing situation, but given the chance to be a meaningful contributor to a winning ball team. And that means that mistakes, or lack of effort, will be tolerated less.

All that being said, I would like to see Ross shifted to the SG spot. I understand the issues with filling the SF spot if that happens, as a JV, Amir, JJ front court would make it difficult to space the floor. Ross would certainly get more chances at the 2, given that we haven't changed much offensively in Demar's absence. In any event, I still don't like GV starting. If Casey isn't comfortable moving Ross (which may require swapping Amir for Patterson in the starting unit), than Lou should start at the 2. He seems like a better fit to slide into Demar's role, while minimizing changes to the rotations. Lowry can be PG Lowry instead of 2guard Lowry (I'd prefer that), GV can command the second unit, and still plently of opportunity throughout the game to run that 2PG lineup.

If I have any knock on Casey atm, it's that he hasn't shown to be creative and flexible with the starting unit in Demar's absence. Surely the player's would accept any rotation he decides to experiment with and now is the time to do it.

[TeamEd]

As for Ross...well he just doesn't seem like a particularly hard worker. He isn't tough mentally, and like JV, gets deflated easily. It's almost like he isn't ready to accept the challenge of being more than he has so far. He is the polar opposite of Demar in that regard. Granted, Demar was developed under different circumstances than Ross is presently, and given more freedom to develop his game during his rookie contract than Ross is. Guess what...too f'ing bad. We are a pretty damn good team and no one wants to sacrifice that success to watch Ross and/or JV play half-ass basketball. He should be ecstatic he doesn't have to play his rookie contract out in a losing situation, but given the chance to be a meaningful contributor to a winning ball team. And that means that mistakes, or lack of effort, will be tolerated less.

All that being said, I would like to see Ross shifted to the SG spot. I understand the issues with filling the SF spot if that happens, as a JV, Amir, JJ front court would make it difficult to space the floor. Ross would certainly get more chances at the 2, given that we haven't changed much offensively in Demar's absence. In any event, I still don't like GV starting. If Casey isn't comfortable moving Ross (which may require swapping Amir for Patterson in the starting unit), than Lou should start at the 2. He seems like a better fit to slide into Demar's role, while minimizing changes to the rotations. Lowry can be PG Lowry instead of 2guard Lowry (I'd prefer that), GV can command the second unit, and still plently of opportunity throughout the game to run that 2PG lineup.

If I have any knock on Casey atm, it's that he hasn't shown to be creative and flexible with the starting unit in Demar's absence. Surely the player's would accept any rotation he decides to experiment with and now is the time to do it.

I do agree that Ross seems to be, quite clearly, an NBA shooting guard. Most of his defensive problems come out of his difficulties guarding SFs with size and shooting guard skills. Where I don't agree is in how that can be achieved with the current roster.

The current starting lineup already produces spacing issues. The Raps have no shooting in the frontcourt. The obvious solution to that is what you said, shifting Ross to shooting guard putting JJ into SF and swapping PP for Amir. But, that takes an already sketchy defensive frontcourt and makes it disastrous. As wonky as Amir's body is right now, he's the keystone of the defense. And, for all PP's strengths he is a blow average frontcourt defender and rebounder. What's more, PP's offense relies on spot up opportunities and the team as a whole and Kyle especially seems to have stopped making creating those opportunities a priority. Remember how ineffective PP looked starting earlier in the season?

As for putting Lou in as starting SG, I don't see that working. For whatever reason, he's looked awful when he's asked to play off the ball next to Kyle. The words "off the ball" are not in Lou's basketball vocabulary.

[Doc]

Hey chicken little's, we're 15-5 right now. I'm no NBA insider, but I'm pretty sure there's no talk at the high level within the Raptors organization and MLSE that Casey's getting fired anytime soon.

Fack .... losing a game or two is making you some of you go nutty. Sure there are some concerns on most of our minds moving forward, but until we go on a considerable losing streak some of you are overreacting at the moment.

[mcHAPPY]

Hey chicken little's, we're 15-5 right now. I'm no NBA insider, but I'm pretty sure there's no talk at the high level within the Raptors organization and MLSE that Casey's getting fired anytime soon.

Fack .... losing a game or two is making you some of you go nutty. Sure there are some concerns on most of our minds moving forward, but until we go on a considerable losing streak some of you are overreacting at the moment.

The OP was not very well thought and poorly worded.

Unfortunately DD injury has done nothing to help see what TR and JV are. They have stayed in exact same roles despite such an important piece missing.

[Raptorsnz]

Hey chicken little's, we're 15-5 right now. I'm no NBA insider, but I'm pretty sure there's no talk at the high level within the Raptors organization and MLSE that Casey's getting fired anytime soon.

Fack .... losing a game or two is making you some of you go nutty. Sure there are some concerns on most of our minds moving forward, but until we go on a considerable losing streak some of you are overreacting at the moment.

I feel like with people here there's no winning with Casey. Everything negative is due to Casey and every win is in spite of his terribleness.
JV misses lay up? Casey didn't prepare him well enough.
DeMar shoots a long two? Casey should've told him drive to the rim more.
We win by 10 with Vasquez in the starting line up? We could've won by more if James Johnson started.
We go small in the 4th quarter to match up with the opposition? Casey is dumb for not forcing the opposition to adjust to us.

[NaijaBoy17]

The OP was not very well thought and poorly worded.

Unfortunately DD injury has done nothing to help see what TR and JV are. They have stayed in exact same roles despite such an important piece missing.

The OP was thought out and worded just fine.

The point of the thread was as a rebuttal to people like you who have placed a large chunk of the blame for JV/TR's lack of opportunity on DeRozan.

DeRozan was the manipulated variable in this "experiment". After a 5 game review, it appears evident that the variable, DeRozan, has no negative impact on JV/TRoss' opportunity or production when he is present.

As such it is clear that the fault for this is shared between both JV and Ross themselves and the coaching staff.

My hypothesis is that it's MORESO the former than the latter. Star potential will shine through when given 30mpg. It's up to JV and Ross to seize their opportunity. Yes, Casey and the rest of the staff don't run a ton of plays for them, but that's not an excuse for Valanciunas to be scoring worse than Tyson Chandler (who gets ZERO plays run for him).

[Mediumcore]

I feel like with people here there's no winning with Casey. Everything negative is due to Casey and every win is in spite of his terribleness.
JV misses lay up? Casey didn't prepare him well enough.
DeMar shoots a long two? Casey should've told him drive to the rim more.
We win by 10 with Vasquez in the starting line up? We could've won by more if James Johnson started.
We go small in the 4th quarter to match up with the opposition? Casey is dumb for not forcing the opposition to adjust to us.

Don't forget that when the Offense is doing well it's due to the offense being constructed by an assistant and when it's doing bad it's because Casey is isn't head coach material.

[Doc]

The OP was not very well thought and poorly worded.

And that's fine. Like yours, its his opinion. Can't fault a guy for sharing his two cents right?

[JimiCliff]

The OP was thought out and worded just fine.

The point of the thread was as a rebuttal to people like you who have placed a large chunk of the blame for JV/TR's lack of opportunity on DeRozan.

DeRozan was the manipulated variable in this "experiment". After a 5 game review, it appears evident that the variable, DeRozan, has no negative impact on JV/TRoss' opportunity or production when he is present.

As such it is clear that the fault for this is shared between both JV and Ross themselves and the coaching staff.

My hypothesis is that it's MORESO the former than the latter. Star potential will shine through when given 30mpg. It's up to JV and Ross to seize their opportunity. Yes, Casey and the rest of the staff don't run a ton of plays for them, but that's not an excuse for Valanciunas to be scoring worse than Tyson Chandler (who gets ZERO plays run for him).

Well if you're going to throw these kinds of terms around, where's the analysis of whether or not 5 games is anywhere near large enough a sample size?

[NaijaBoy17]

Well if you're going to throw these kinds of terms around, where's the analysis of whether or not 5 games is anywhere near large enough a sample size?

That's a very valid point, just going based off what I've seen so far.

Perhaps JV and Ross will explode over the course of the next few games and it really will be DD's fault that they didn't do so previously? We shall see.

[nubreed000]

Well if you're going to throw these kinds of terms around, where's the analysis of whether or not 5 games is anywhere near large enough a sample size?

I guess then we should say that "games" isn't really accurate of a metric and should go by minutes played.

Anyways, my take is that of what others have said and regardless of what our record is: JV and TRoss haven't played well this season and I'm struggling to see any real improvement from who they were in year 1 to year 2, to now. (I mean there were improvements, but marginal).

I really want both of those guys to have meaningful roles on the team (especially JV) but how much longer can we wait until mere flashes of brilliance become just that, and not signs of something greater?

[mcHAPPY]

And that's fine. Like yours, its his opinion. Can't fault a guy for sharing his two cents right?

Definitely not

[JimiCliff]

I guess then we should say that "games" isn't really accurate of a metric and should go by minutes played.

Anyways, my take is that of what others have said and regardless of what our record is: JV and TRoss haven't played well this season and I'm struggling to see any real improvement from who they were in year 1 to year 2, to now. (I mean there were improvements, but marginal).

I really want both of those guys to have meaningful roles on the team (especially JV) but how much longer can we wait until mere flashes of brilliance become just that, and not signs of something greater?

Honestly: years. Especially so with JV.

This point's been made a million times before, but since a bunch of people continue to forget it/refuse to acknowledge it, it's worth repeating: as a young C, JV's development has been very much in line with players like Noah, Gasol, Horford, etc. Is he Shaq, or Hakeem, or Duncan? Obviously not. And he's obviously going through some growing pains right now. But he'll be fine.

As for Ross, I'd say that once he matures, his basement will be a slightly above average NBA SG, and there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is, he isn't being played at that position...

[mcHAPPY]

The OP was thought out and worded just fine.

The point of the thread was as a rebuttal to people like you who have placed a large chunk of the blame for JV/TR's lack of opportunity on DeRozan.

DeRozan was the manipulated variable in this "experiment". After a 5 game review, it appears evident that the variable, DeRozan, has no negative impact on JV/TRoss' opportunity or production when he is present.

As such it is clear that the fault for this is shared between both JV and Ross themselves and the coaching staff.

My hypothesis is that it's MORESO the former than the latter. Star potential will shine through when given 30mpg. It's up to JV and Ross to seize their opportunity. Yes, Casey and the rest of the staff don't run a ton of plays for them, but that's not an excuse for Valanciunas to be scoring worse than Tyson Chandler (who gets ZERO plays run for him).

Were you Iman/Xixak/Masai/Nostradamus/etc.? There is a very familiar ring.

But anyways to the task at hand.

You're absolutely right the blame is not on DeRozan. I am pretty sure I made that point in the first reply.

However you've gone batshit crazy placing blame on players - read your OP - for lack of stats when they are not even getting an opportunity. I mean, holy hell, Ross doesn't even get to play his natural position - lol! The lack of game plan change and the insistence on putting square pegs in round holes is on the coach. Cue the 15-5 comments but they are now 2-2. Oh and D has been awful for 8 games and counting despite all the practice time dedicated.

JV being a soft, pussy, bitch (just some of the lovely phrases tossed his way) is squarely on JV.