#FireCasey

[Superjudge]

Can't win if you don't have the best players.

[Chr1s1anL]

I've always been a Casey fan. Good guy, represents the franchise well and was really able to elevate the franchise from the moment he stepped into the role of head coach. But it's no longer about 50 win seasons. It's about progress. The question you gotta ask yourself is "have the Raptors reached their ceiling with Casey"?

There isn't a coach other there that is going to help this roster beat Cleveland. That's the next step right? No available coach currently would of change the outcome of that series.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

[Scraptor]

There isn't a coach other there that is going to help this roster beat Cleveland. That's the next step right? No available coach currently would of change the outcome of that series.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

No, the next step is to change the culture to one that is more robust for the playoffs. So that we don't struggle against crappy teams, lose to lower seeds, and get thoroughly embarrassed by contenders.

How is it that the Pacers' margin of defeat to the Cavs was 4 points while ours was 15?

The step after developing better systems is better player development. Bruno and our pick won't see minutes till they're 30 under Casey. A better system will give meaningful minutes to younger players, not chain them to the bench so journeyman vets can close out meaningless 4th quarters.

Finally, the step after that is to try to beat the Cavs and the Dubs.

That's all from the coaching side. Sure we need more talent but that won't matter if the coach has no clue what to do with them. Ibaka and Tucker were supposed to make us competitive with the Cavs but they still destroyed us (way worse than they beat Indiana).

At some point you have to take a cold look at the outcomes and realize that Casey is just a regular season coach and nothing more.

[LJ2]

There isn't a coach other there that is going to help this roster beat Cleveland. That's the next step right? No available coach currently would of change the outcome of that series.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

I agree, the outcome wouldn't change, but there is a lot of room for improvement between the way we lost to the Cav's and the eventual outcome. It's not even a reaction to getting destroyed this year. Looking at the way this team plays in the playoffs over the last few seasons and especially their loses through those playoff runs reflects that the style we play doesn't work well this time of year.

I don't even think this is a failure on Casey's part. I just feel like he's given and taught everything he is capable of.

[Just Is]

I've got to say ... I have never been more happy for the existence of the Raptors905. It makes my decision for the Raptors significantly easier next season.

[mjt20mik]

I think the Culture falls on our leadership. I do not think Kyle comes back. I think we retain Casey for one more year, and then we don't extend and get another coach.

[3inthekeon]

Well, if Lowry's not back, we won't have to worry about losing Game 1 at home in the playoffs.

[mjt20mik]

Well, if Lowry's not back, we won't have to worry about losing Game 1 at home in the playoffs.

LOL. I'm okay with that. I don't want to be mediocre for the rest of the foreseeable future.

[3inthekeon]

LOL. I'm okay with that. I don't want to be mediocre for the rest of the foreseeable future.

But mediocre is exactly what we would be. Maybe a bottom 4 seed or just missing the playoffs.

[DanH]

But mediocre is exactly what we would be. Maybe a bottom 4 seed or just missing the playoffs.

Which is why my opinion is that if you lose Lowry, you call it a day with this core and blow the thing up, start again. If there's no value for Carroll or JV out there, hold onto them as de facto leaders for the next couple years of rebuild, let the young guys get some run, grab a few more draft picks and then try to strike in free agency when Carroll and JV come off the books. In the meantime, sell off DeRozan and Joseph for as good a return as possible and let the other FA's walk.

Logic being that, yeah, without Lowry, even if you bring back the other three FA's, you are probably going to be a road team in the playoffs, if you even make it. No way the team wants to pay tax for that, so even retaining all the free agents becomes unlikely unless you shed some salary. Then you are even less likely to win more. So, step back, probably with no upside to get back to where we are now. So then even if you want those free agents back - do Serge and Tucker want to play for a team that may or may not make the playoffs? Even Patterson may jump ship in the face of a decent offer because of the clear lack of opportunity here regardless of who else is on the roster.

So at that point, your off-season is just you losing all 4 of those players and having 20 M (well below the max) to offer free agents. So, significant talent drop. And then the guys you'd trade to clear more cap room are the same guys you kind of have to keep now, having lost their competition in free agency (Lowry/Joseph, Ibaka/JV, Tucker/Carroll). So, you only open up holes if you do clear enough cap room to make a play for a difference maker.

So now you are faced with the options: capped out team with flawed star as your cornerstone, or take the rebuild route. Either way, if the team doesn't shell out some cash to at least keep the role players (and again, as noted, probably won't want to pay the tax, nevermind if they'd even be interested in staying), have to think DeRozan starts to think he doesn't want to stick it out through another tough period for the team (which he's explicitly stated in the past). So at this point, if you want to be loyal to DeMar, that probably means trading him rather than keeping him. At which point you are clearly acknowledging that winning right now is not really the goal.

Anyway, if Kyle walks, you tear it down.

[Nilanka]

Totally agree with Dan. If Lowry walks, we don't have a roster worth building forward with. We'd be on a clear path to mediocrity (if we aren't already there).

Blow it up!

[SkywalkerAC]

Which is why my opinion is that if you lose Lowry, you call it a day with this core and blow the thing up, start again. If there's no value for Carroll or JV out there, hold onto them as de facto leaders for the next couple years of rebuild, let the young guys get some run, grab a few more draft picks and then try to strike in free agency when Carroll and JV come off the books. In the meantime, sell off DeRozan and Joseph for as good a return as possible and let the other FA's walk.

Logic being that, yeah, without Lowry, even if you bring back the other three FA's, you are probably going to be a road team in the playoffs, if you even make it. No way the team wants to pay tax for that, so even retaining all the free agents becomes unlikely unless you shed some salary. Then you are even less likely to win more. So, step back, probably with no upside to get back to where we are now. So then even if you want those free agents back - do Serge and Tucker want to play for a team that may or may not make the playoffs? Even Patterson may jump ship in the face of a decent offer because of the clear lack of opportunity here regardless of who else is on the roster.

So at that point, your off-season is just you losing all 4 of those players and having 20 M (well below the max) to offer free agents. So, significant talent drop. And then the guys you'd trade to clear more cap room are the same guys you kind of have to keep now, having lost their competition in free agency (Lowry/Joseph, Ibaka/JV, Tucker/Carroll). So, you only open up holes if you do clear enough cap room to make a play for a difference maker.

So now you are faced with the options: capped out team with flawed star as your cornerstone, or take the rebuild route. Either way, if the team doesn't shell out some cash to at least keep the role players (and again, as noted, probably won't want to pay the tax, nevermind if they'd even be interested in staying), have to think DeRozan starts to think he doesn't want to stick it out through another tough period for the team (which he's explicitly stated in the past). So at this point, if you want to be loyal to DeMar, that probably means trading him rather than keeping him. At which point you are clearly acknowledging that winning right now is not really the goal.

Anyway, if Kyle walks, you tear it down.

I don't know. If Kyle walks but you can replace him with, say, Nando de Colo for the league avg salary, and Ibaka/Tucker want to stick around, I don't know that the fall-off is all that bad. We're left with a highly competitive roster while retaining a legitimate developmental contingent - ie we're good to compete while still building for the future.

You might say that's ridiculous, we're going to be trash without Lowry, but we were actually pretty damn competitive without Lowry this season - even take a look at that last game against the Cavs - and that was with a pretty rough (shooting) backcourt of Cory-DeMar. Nando, on the other hand, is less ball dominant, might actually be the better shooter, and is more versatile defensively.

I don't know, it just seems like there's a pretty solid backup plan in place...And the Spurs didn't get to where they are by blowing it up every few years.

[Nilanka]

I don't know. If Kyle walks but you can replace him with, say, Nando de Colo for the league avg salary, and Ibaka/Tucker want to stick around, I don't know that the fall-off is all that bad. We're left with a highly competitive roster while retaining a legitimate developmental contingent - ie we're good to compete while still building for the future.

You might say that's ridiculous, we're going to be trash without Lowry, but we were actually pretty damn competitive without Lowry this season - even take a look at that last game against the Cavs - and that was with a pretty rough (shooting) backcourt of Cory-DeMar. Nando, on the other hand, is less ball dominant, might actually be the better shooter, and is more versatile defensively.

I don't know, it just seems like there's a pretty solid backup plan in place...And the Spurs didn't get to where they are by blowing it up every few years.

We'd be a capped out 41 win team. The definition of mediocrity.

As for Spurs, why tank if you've got a 1st ballot hall of famer anchoring your defense for 20 years?

[SkywalkerAC]

And yeah, it's starting to look like Casey gets another kick at the can.

[SkywalkerAC]

We'd be a capped out 41 win team. The definition of mediocrity.

As for Spurs, why tank if you've got a 1st ballot hall of famer anchoring your defense for 20 years?

Says who? If there isn't much of a fall-off (which is the premise I'm working from) we're talking 50+ wins.

And why tank at all if you don't have to? Atlanta has done just fine with their non-tanking strategy, and that's in a pretty crappy market.