#FireCasey

[golden]

I don't think Tucker getting on him means coaches aren't. Tucker is in the game with him. He gets a different perspective and level of respect from his piers. Who are you going to listen to more, a dude in a suit or a bad mo'fo who could smack the crap out of you?

Motivating is not about talking and and having somebody listen to you. It's about doing. A motivator gets people to do things and a great motivator gets people to do things they don't want to do, but have to do. The narrative being discussed was that it's universally accepted that Casey is a great motivator. I'm not sure I agree with that 100%.

[LJ2]

Motivating is not about talking and and having somebody listen to you. It's about doing. A motivator gets people to do things and a great motivator gets people to do things they don't want to do, but have to do. The narrative being discussed was that it's universally accepted that Casey is a great motivator. I'm not sure I agree with that 100%.

Well then I will gracefully bow out of this conversation as I do not consider anything said by fans on this forum to be "universally accepted". Understanding that might be the first step to resolving many of these debates, and I'm not directing that at anyone person as most here are quite level headed.

[SkywalkerAC]

On to the 2nd round (again).

[Axel]

There's a lot of bullshit generated for some time on this board about "accountability".

Does Casey hold his "stars" accountable. Maybe he doesn't, but maybe he does. Because what most here consider accountability is public humiliation with benchings or maybe a sideline tirade.

As far as NBA teams and players are concerned, film sessions are the major sources of accountability. Does the coach criticize some players, but not his star? Griffin relayed a story of attending a Cav film session where Blatt criticized a bunch of players, but despite Lebron obviously loafing back on D, Blatt never said a peep. It was shortly after he canned Blatt.

There were similar issues with Brooks in OKC. From Zach Lowe, Feb 2, 2016:



I've never heard mention of Casey holding DD and KL accountable in film sessions, but I've never heard he doesn't either.

I'm with WMCJ, accountability goes well beyond the things you've mentioned; it's when guys like Vasquez, Salmons, Scola, etc can be completely useless on defence yet continue to get significant minutes over young players working hard on defence. Demar and Kyle can offer very little effort on D with carte blanche minutes. Carroll spent most of the season being useless on both ends of the court yet always starts while Norm was getting DNP-CD.

The number one thing a coach can do to send a message to a player is playing time. It doesn't need to be a tirade or involve the media; set expectations and when players don't meet those, their minutes adjust accordingly. Casey preaches defence but offence first players have always been given more minutes and longer leashes than guys who actually try to defend. That's a sign of bad accountability (or good accountability with just really big double standards).

[golden]

Too close for comfort last night because we tried to go into ISO / close-out / milk clock mode ridiculously too early, instead of continuing some of the beautiful ball movement that we saw. This quote from Casey was interesting. I'm heavily reading between the lines that perhaps the decision to go ISO is actually on Kyle and especially DeMar. Perhaps what is happening is that when the Raps offense sputtered a bit in the 3rd quarter and then Kyle and DeMar lost trust in their teammates.

“We have to learn from it,” Casey said. “Most of all, understand what got us the lead and not think it’s over.”

“Hopefully we focus more on how we got the lead,” Patrick Patterson added. “Hopefully we focus more on that than what happened during that letdown. Build on that and just carry that into Clevleand.”

That lesson? Same as it’s always been with this team.

“Moving the ball got us the lead; not moving the ball got us in a slump; moving the ball at the end got us a win,” Tucker said.

[mjt20mik]

Too close for comfort last night because we tried to go into ISO / close-out / milk clock mode ridiculously too early, instead of continuing some of the beautiful ball movement that we saw. This quote from Casey was interesting. I'm heavily reading between the lines that perhaps the decision to go ISO is actually on Kyle and especially DeMar. Perhaps what is happening is that when the Raps offense sputtered a bit in the 3rd quarter and then Kyle and DeMar lost trust in their teammates.

I don't think they lost trust, I think they panicked. When you panic, you go back to your natural instincts (which is ISO for Kyle and Demar). I think once they settled down, they were more calm and made better basketball plays. Either way, MIL was a great test. Our team is built to face the Cavs vs the Bucks.

[golden]

I don't think they lost trust, I think they panicked. When you panic, you go back to your natural instincts (which is ISO for Kyle and Demar). I think once they settled down, they were more calm and made better basketball plays. Either way, MIL was a great test. Our team is built to face the Cavs vs the Bucks.

But that's the whole point of coaching, though. To instill new good habits that become your new natural instinct, replacing your previous bad habits. The fact that this group has been together for 5 years and was the veteran team facing a team with a very young leader and a couple of rookies is definitely not comforting. If they haven't learned their lessons by now, they never will, which is unfortunate because it seems like ball movement unlocks another level for this team. And long stretches of ISO ball makes them look horrific at times. Casey's comments made me wonder if he's actually telling them to keep moving the ball, but Kyle and Demar are calling their own audibles in spite of that.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I'm with WMCJ, accountability goes well beyond the things you've mentioned; it's when guys like Vasquez, Salmons, Scola, etc can be completely useless on defence yet continue to get significant minutes over young players working hard on defence. Demar and Kyle can offer very little effort on D with carte blanche minutes. Carroll spent most of the season being useless on both ends of the court yet always starts while Norm was getting DNP-CD.

The number one thing a coach can do to send a message to a player is playing time. It doesn't need to be a tirade or involve the media; set expectations and when players don't meet those, their minutes adjust accordingly. Casey preaches defence but offence first players have always been given more minutes and longer leashes than guys who actually try to defend. That's a sign of bad accountability (or good accountability with just really big double standards).

I actually think this raises a bigger beef I have long had with Casey - role cards. DeRozan and Lowry are primarily expected to score, while other players are expected to defend, rebound, set picks, etc... I don't expect DeRozan to ever be taken out for playing terrible defense, because that's not why Casey has him in the lineup. If that was the case, DeRozan would never be on the court during the last 5 minutes of a game the Raptors are leading.

It think players are probably held more accountable than we realize, just not for the same things. I have a big issue with that, but it's a different issue to debate.

[3inthekeon]

I'm with WMCJ, accountability goes well beyond the things you've mentioned; it's when guys like Vasquez, Salmons, Scola, etc can be completely useless on defence yet continue to get significant minutes over young players working hard on defence. Demar and Kyle can offer very little effort on D with carte blanche minutes. Carroll spent most of the season being useless on both ends of the court yet always starts while Norm was getting DNP-CD.

The number one thing a coach can do to send a message to a player is playing time. It doesn't need to be a tirade or involve the media; set expectations and when players don't meet those, their minutes adjust accordingly. Casey preaches defence but offence first players have always been given more minutes and longer leashes than guys who actually try to defend. That's a sign of bad accountability (or good accountability with just really big double standards).

Whose 98.2 DEFRTG was the best on the Raptors in 2013-2014? Vasquez. There's a reason the Bucks gave up the 2 picks for him. Salmons also held his own in the regular season at 101.2. Meanwhile board darling Landry Fields was 105.6.

Reminds me of the old Billy Crystal schtick "I'd rather look good than feel good". Fields looked like he was defending well, Salmon's didn't, because one on one Fields was better than Salmons. But Fields kept blowing rotations, which probably had no small part in his inflated rating. Salmons was only getting by on smarts, because he had lost almost all his athleticism. But even being half-man half-corpse, Salmons was still more effective than Fields, at least in the regular season.

[DanH]

Whose 98.2 DEFRTG was the best on the Raptors in 2013-2014? Vasquez. There's a reason the Bucks gave up the 2 picks for him. Salmons also held his own in the regular season at 101.2. Meanwhile board darling Landry Fields was 105.6.

Reminds me of the old Billy Crystal schtick "I'd rather look good than feel good". Fields looked like he was defending well, Salmon's didn't, because one on one Fields was better than Salmons. But Fields kept blowing rotations, which probably had no small part in his inflated rating. Salmons was only getting by on smarts, because he had lost almost all his athleticism. But even being half-man half-corpse, Salmons was still more effective than Fields, at least in the regular season.

What? Salmons and Vasquez both exclusively played with and against bench units. Salmons fell apart as the season went along - just look at his disastrous ratings in the playoffs or in later months of the year. Post-all-star, Salmons had a 107 DRTG, worst of the regulars outside of Hansbrough. In the playoffs? 120, far and away the worst on the team. Salmons basically had a couple good months and was a tire fire after that (and that's only his defence - his shooting disappeared after only a month). Fields had a small-ish sample because he was either underused or hurt most of the year, so his on-court numbers aren't perfectly representative.

In any case, Vasquez survived that first year, and was useless the next year - partly because he had to play against starters when DD went down, partly because teams started actually attacking him, partly because he strangely got some actual defensive assignments occasionally that boggled the mind.

[Axel]

Whose 98.2 DEFRTG was the best on the Raptors in 2013-2014? Vasquez. There's a reason the Bucks gave up the 2 picks for him. Salmons also held his own in the regular season at 101.2. Meanwhile board darling Landry Fields was 105.6.

Reminds me of the old Billy Crystal schtick "I'd rather look good than feel good". Fields looked like he was defending well, Salmon's didn't, because one on one Fields was better than Salmons. But Fields kept blowing rotations, which probably had no small part in his inflated rating. Salmons was only getting by on smarts, because he had lost almost all his athleticism. But even being half-man half-corpse, Salmons was still more effective than Fields, at least in the regular season.

Haha yeah, then the Bucks let him walk. He got signed by the Nets and waived after 3 games. Really don't think the Bucks trade can be used to prove anything.

Plus what Dan said.

[Majesiu]

In any case, Vasquez survived that first year, and was useless the next year - partly because he had to play against starters when DD went down, partly because teams started actually attacking him, partly because he strangely got some actual defensive assignments occasionally that boggled the mind.

Oh god I just got flashback of one of the worst Casey in-game adjustments ever - on last play of tied game against Pelicans (where AD didn't even play) he puts Vasquez on Tyreke Evans (who played PG at that time) who of course makes easy game-winning layup against backpedalling Greivis... Absolutely disgusting.

It's was very puzzling trade Bucks made, as Hammond (Bucks GM) has nice track record: acquired Middleton in Jennings trade(and then signed him to reasonable $15M per year extension - same year as DeMarre), drafted Giannis, Jabari, Brogdon. Also fleeced CHI in Snell trade, and all of that should be enough to put him in Top 10 NBA GMs (or just outside of it, still better than most of the league). Of course the hardest part begins now for the Bucks as they entered the territory of good teams (they are getting comparisons to LeBron 1st stint with Cavs teams) to elevate the talent to the level that is necessary to win championships. Going back to that Vasquez trade seems one of the more plausible explanation was Kidd wanting veteran big PG being able to pass and shoot 3s to match with rest of that young squad.

[Deems]

I think Casey is done if this series is done. He's lost a hold of this team, at the start he built the culture; but now the players run this team. We need a Tom Thibideau type of guy ready to raise hell if you slack.

[enlightenment]

I think Casey is done if this series is done. He's lost a hold of this team, at the start he built the culture; but now the players run this team. We need a Tom Thibideau type of guy ready to raise hell if you slack.

If we lose to Lebron, the eventual champs, Casey is done? You serious?

[Hotshot]

If we lose to Lebron, the eventual champs, Casey is done? You serious?

I think there is a middle ground here. If the results against the Cavs are worse or the same as last season, progress hasn't made even though the roster is better. So the head coach has to take the brunt of the blame... no?!