#FireCasey

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Coaches on the hot seat courtesy of the Ringer. 18 coaches mentioned, 10 of them got their own write-up including:



https://theringer.com/nba-coaches-ho...7-f2d777fa77eb

People need to start reading more articles like this and realize it's not just me and a few others saying this. This team got worse in the summer and doesn't really look to be actually trying to compete with Cleveland, just do enough to maintain its status as a top 4 seed and 1st/2nd round exit team depending on the matchup.

You don't hard cap yourself and throw away assets like 1st rounders if you're trying to compete. If people here really want to buy that the best move we could've made this summer was effectively trading Carroll, CoJo, a 1st and an early 2nd for C.J. Miles while losing three of the four (CoJo, 2Pat, Tucker) best players we had coming off the bench and hard-capping ourselves meaning we have no flexibility to make other moves until basically the 2018 offseason, that's really up to them.

[DanH]

People need to start reading more articles like this and realize it's not just me and a few others saying this. This team got worse in the summer and doesn't really look to be actually trying to compete with Cleveland, just do enough to maintain its status as a top 4 seed and 1st/2nd round exit team depending on the matchup.

You don't hard cap yourself and throw away assets like 1st rounders if you're trying to compete. If people here really want to buy that the best move we could've made this summer was effectively trading Carroll, CoJo, a 1st and an early 2nd for C.J. Miles while losing three of the four (CoJo, 2Pat, Tucker) best players we had coming off the bench and hard-capping ourselves meaning we have no flexibility to make other moves until basically the 2018 offseason, that's really up to them.

I take it you've got a better move they definitely could have made in mind?

[Nilanka]

People need to start reading more articles like this and realize it's not just me and a few others saying this. This team got worse in the summer and doesn't really look to be actually trying to compete with Cleveland, just do enough to maintain its status as a top 4 seed and 1st/2nd round exit team depending on the matchup.

You don't hard cap yourself and throw away assets like 1st rounders if you're trying to compete. If people here really want to buy that the best move we could've made this summer was effectively trading Carroll, CoJo, a 1st and an early 2nd for C.J. Miles while losing three of the four (CoJo, 2Pat, Tucker) best players we had coming off the bench and hard-capping ourselves meaning we have no flexibility to make other moves until basically the 2018 offseason, that's really up to them.

Masai's clearly straddling the fence here. Ridding himself of nasty contracts, while maintaining a roster that should compete for a top 4 seed again. But I don't think anyone here is disillusioned into thinking we're any closer to beating Cleveland.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I take it you've got a better move they definitely could have made in mind?

If our goal was just to get an average SF who can shoot, we could've targeted Jared Dudley. Career 40% three point shooter, can play the 3 or 4 and a better defender than C.J. Miles is. Also has a reputation for being very good in the locker room (I remember some talk about him really helping the young guys in Milwaukee when he was there). Signed for 2 years including this year at 10M and 9M.

Advantage of trading for Dudley is that since he's not a free agent, it wouldn't be a sign and trade so we wouldn't be hard-capped. Can't imagine the cost would be much higher than Cory Joseph considering they have T.J. Warren, Jackson and Chriss who need minutes in his position and Bledsoe is very injury prone while Knight is really more of a 2-guard.

That's just one example. Could've gotten a better 3 in and then eaten the tax and held onto DeMarre until he has 1 year left where he can actually be used as a positive expiring salary ballast (see Jamal Crawford) rather than being someone who we need to give away assets to dump.

So yeah there were better options.

[Mess]

Yeah 31 yr old PF Dudley (and two more rookies next year picked 20+) would have had us closer to Cleveland for sure.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Yeah 31 yr old PF Dudley (and two more rookies next year picked 20+) would have had us closer to Cleveland for sure.

I didn't say he would have us closer to Cleveland. I said he would've achieved the same on-court value of getting Miles while leaving us with more flexibility to make other moves since we would not be hard capped and would not be unable to include 1st round picks in a trade.

[DanH]

I didn't say he would have us closer to Cleveland. I said he would've achieved the same on-court value of getting Miles while leaving us with more flexibility to make other moves since we would not be hard capped and would not be unable to include 1st round picks in a trade.

And less flexibility next season when we need to re-sign Powell. Yay!

[Shaolin Fantastic]

And less flexibility next season when we need to re-sign Powell. Yay!

Sorry, how?

We could dump/trade Carroll more easily since he would be an expiring. Dudley only makes about 1M per year more than what we paid Miles and he'd be expiring as well so moveable if absolutely necessary.

Edit: And Powell is a restricted FA with 3 bird years next summer. We decide whether we re-sign him or not, not anyone else. If he's a highly valued contributor then we should be willing to go into the tax to pay him. Cleveland does it with worse players and they're in a smaller market than we are.

[DanH]

Sorry, how?

We could dump/trade Carroll more easily since he would be an expiring. Dudley only makes about 1M per year more than what we paid Miles and he'd be expiring as well so moveable if absolutely necessary.

Edit: And Powell is a restricted FA with 3 bird years next summer. We decide whether we re-sign him or not, not anyone else. If he's a highly valued contributor then we should be willing to go into the tax to pay him. Cleveland does it with worse players and they're in a smaller market than we are.

Carroll would be easier to trade, and you know this how? A shorter deal in theory is cheaper to dump, but with the league even more cash-strapped next summer there is no guarantee the price wouldn't be just as high or simply not an option. And if the team is not dumping salary at some point, they are moving into the "way too much tax to pay no matter what" region. Sure, ideally, the team would be perfectly happy to go 30-40M into the tax and pay out a 100M+ tax bill. But for those of us who live in reality, that's not feasible. As it is, they've shed long term salary, lined up their promising youth for bigger roles, got a pure shooter on the wing, set themselves up nicely to keep the core together next summer going about 15M or so into the tax, and run the team back to take their shot for the next three seasons.

Instead, they could be in a situation where they've traded for the injured Jared Dudley, paid him more than Miles, including next off-season when they may or may not be able to shed salary to re-sign Powell or add other talent, and are worse this year because let's face it Carroll plays 30 MPG again, obviously. Yeah, sign me all the way up for that...

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Carroll would be easier to trade, and you know this how? A shorter deal in theory is cheaper to dump, but with the league even more cash-strapped next summer there is no guarantee the price wouldn't be just as high or simply not an option. And if the team is not dumping salary at some point, they are moving into the "way too much tax to pay no matter what" region. Sure, ideally, the team would be perfectly happy to go 30-40M into the tax and pay out a 100M+ tax bill. But for those of us who live in reality, that's not feasible. As it is, they've shed long term salary, lined up their promising youth for bigger roles, got a pure shooter on the wing, set themselves up nicely to keep the core together next summer going about 15M or so into the tax, and run the team back to take their shot for the next three seasons.

Instead, they could be in a situation where they've traded for the injured Jared Dudley, paid him more than Miles, including next off-season when they may or may not be able to shed salary to re-sign Powell or add other talent, and are worse this year because let's face it Carroll plays 30 MPG again, obviously. Yeah, sign me all the way up for that...

And I'm done with you. That's the last condescending comment I'm going to listen to.

We can shill for the organization or look at the fact that the team has handicapped its ability to improve in exchange for profits. Maybe it's because I didn't grow up on American sports first, but my view is that maximizing competitiveness should be prioritized over money-making for professional sports teams.

[DanH]

And I'm done with you. That's the last condescending comment I'm going to listen to.

We can shill for the organization or look at the fact that the team has handicapped its ability to improve in exchange for profits. Maybe it's because I didn't grow up on American sports first, but my view is that maximizing competitiveness should be prioritized over money-making for professional sports teams.

Come on now, having an understanding of how ridiculous the tax payments get when you are too deep is not some unreasonable suggestion. Saying that a team should be willing to go deep into insane losses is great and all, but you are quite simply bound to be disappointed. Any thing approaching that level of tax payment is something that already has the Warriors worried and the Cavs cutting ancillary costs, and they are champions and essentially shoe ins for deep playoff runs.

[MixxAOR]

So what's bad again? That we hard-capped ourselves or that we're not willing to go into luxury tax? Or those not connected? I'm lost

[Shaolin Fantastic]

So what's bad again? That we hard-capped ourselves or that we're not willing to go into luxury tax? Or those not connected? I'm lost

Both. We hard-capped ourselves, so we can't use the TPE created by the Carroll trade to absorb much salary to bring in more talent. Also we're not willing to go into the tax (which is why they were ok with getting hard-capped in the first place) so again, we're not able to really add much talent.

The reality is to really max out the Lowry-DeMar-Ibaka core we would need to spend quite a lot to making the team around them very, very strong. Instead, the cast around them is weaker than last year with Tucker and Patterson gone and we're relying on late 1st round draft picks to pick up the slack off the bench. I actually do like the fact that we're integrating young players, but I don't like the overall lack of talent in the team.

I think you actually could win a title with a Lowry-DeMar-Ibaka core if we had two more players at that level who fit perfectly. This would require spending into the tax though (which MLSE is clearly not willing to do) and shrewd trading (which Masai is capable of but again, not being allowed to do, instead he is actually losing trades now like the Carroll one). The goal would be to create a team like the Pistons with perfect cohesiveness and essentially 5 tier 2/3 stars in the starting lineup. FWIW that appears to be what Boston is doing now with Isaiah, Hayward, Horford and Crowder (who is criminally underrated and probably better than Ibaka).

[slaw]

People need to start reading more articles like this and realize it's not just me and a few others saying this. This team got worse in the summer and doesn't really look to be actually trying to compete with Cleveland, just do enough to maintain its status as a top 4 seed and 1st/2nd round exit team depending on the matchup.

It's premature to know whether the team "got worse" this summer. Wright and Van Vleet look to be a competent back-up PG duo. Powell is an upgrade over Carroll. Not having to play Carroll is addition by subtraction. CJ Miles is a solid complimentary player. You should also note that we will have a Lowry/DD/Ibaka core for a full season rather than those guys barely playing together because of injuries and Ibaka joining at the deadline. Whether this will all serve to offset the losses of Joseph, Patterson and Tucker remains to be seen but it does, in fact, remain to be seen.

You might be right but I'm not as good or as confident a prognosticator as you are. I will wait and see how it plays out.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

It's premature to know whether the team "got worse" this summer. Wright and Van Vleet look to be a competent back-up PG duo. Powell is an upgrade over Carroll. Not having to play Carroll is addition by subtraction. CJ Miles is a solid complimentary player. You should also note that we will have a Lowry/DD/Ibaka core for a full season rather than those guys barely playing together because of injuries and Ibaka joining at the deadline. Whether this will all serve to offset the losses of Joseph, Patterson and Tucker remains to be seen but it does, in fact, remain to be seen.

You might be right but I'm not as good or as confident a prognosticator as you are. I will wait and see how it plays out.

I'm not really interested in comparing the current team to what we had at the start of last season. It makes no sense as a barometer. It should be compared to what we had at the end of the season. Regular season record isn't what we're after, it's playoff performances. And right now, on paper, this team is definitely worse than the one we had last year. It is effectively the same team + Anunoby/Miles - Carroll/Cojo with Patterson and Tucker (our two best role players) gone.

I get that we can't predict 100% what will happen, but the offseason is all about evaluating who has set themselves up the best for the next year, and based on what we've done we've stood pat at best and taken a step back at worst.