#FireCasey

[DanH]

If you lead the team in net rating your obviously playing well. Go back and check Bebe's number start of the season to the new year. The kid was playing very well.

I'm probably Yak's biggest supporter. I was one of the only people defending the pick when everybody was upset that we didn't draft Sabonis. I even said that Yak eventually beat out Bebe before the season started. With Dan H and whole bunch people arguing against it.

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I was fine with the Poeltl pick, not excited but fine.

I said that BeBe should start the year as the de facto backup over Poeltl with Poeltl maybe getting the job as the year went on if he developed as hoped or BeBe was traded. Considering a) BeBe's tremendous success for the first half of the year and b) Poeltl's recent taking over of his duties (though with all of Pat, JV and Ibaka healthy that role should be much smaller than it's been), I'm not sure what part of this I've argued against. I mean, sure, it was more BeBe getting scouted out rather than Poeltl improving all that much (he has improved though), but still.

[lewro]

I was fine with the Poeltl pick, not excited but fine.

I said that BeBe should start the year as the de facto backup over Poeltl with Poeltl maybe getting the job as the year went on if he developed as hoped or BeBe was traded. Considering a) BeBe's tremendous success for the first half of the year and b) Poeltl's recent taking over of his duties (though with all of Pat, JV and Ibaka healthy that role should be much smaller than it's been), I'm not sure what part of this I've argued against. I mean, sure, it was more BeBe getting scouted out rather than Poeltl improving all that much (he has improved though), but still.

So now it's bc bebe has been scouted? Last week it was Pat and lowrys fault. I don't remember the excuse a month ago.

Christian did argue for yak over sabonis. I argued with him in favour of sabonis bc I questioned yaks strength/toughness. Maybe Christian will be right? Or maybe yak is puss and cant D rebound. Big deal. I can admit it. Like declaring FVV should never be on the court ever and yak should just get garbage mins. Both wrong. That's fact now.
They've played well at times since you made those statements. Just own it.

[SkywalkerAC]

But can you admit that Casey is performing pretty well, all things considered?

[special1]

But can you admit that Casey is performing pretty well, all things considered?

It's incredible isn't it?

You have people who are being positive and giving Casey some credit.....and you have others who refuse to give him any credit at all and are losing credibility with regards to "critical thought" and "nuance."

WMCJ - Is arguing to fire the coach before the playoffs has begun and the results are in..... lol. This after the team is playing at a .733 win percentage without their supposed leader/best player/heart and soul......Unbelievable!

I honestly think those "chunks of posters" he referred to earlier who left (if they didn't change their names) did so because they were WRONG.

Honestly, what happened to Snooch and OldSkool..... I miss those guys and their critical thoughts. Wait.... maybe not so much.


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[white men can't jump]

It's incredible isn't it?

You have people who are being positive and giving Casey some credit.....and you have others who refuse to give him any credit at all and are losing credibility with regards to "critical thought" and "nuance."

WMCJ - Is arguing to fire the coach before the playoffs has begun and the results are in..... lol. This after the team is playing at a .733 win percentage without their supposed leader/best player/heart and soul......Unbelievable!

I honestly think those "chunks of posters" he referred to earlier who left (if they didn't change their names) did so because they were WRONG.

Honestly, what happened to Snooch and OldSkool..... I miss those guys and their critical thoughts. Wait.... maybe not so much.


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Before results are in? This isn't the first year Casey's been our coach, you know? I also can't say he's been an asset in the playoffs in any run we've had (if anything he's been a liability... Even arguing for a neutral impact is a tough sell)

Pretty sure no one left because they were "wrong". Pretty sure people left because the pro-status quo side never argues with much sense. In fact here's yet another response from you not going beyond the winning % and basically condescending to any poster you don't agree with. Classic "adds nothing to the discussion" posting.

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[Axel]

Ok gents, let's try to keep the posts on Casey and give up with the commentary on other posters (past or present).

To the pro Casey crowd, in your opinion, what has Casey improved at during his tenure?

[DanH]

So now it's bc bebe has been scouted? Last week it was Pat and lowrys fault. I don't remember the excuse a month ago.

Christian did argue for yak over sabonis. I argued with him in favour of sabonis bc I questioned yaks strength/toughness. Maybe Christian will be right? Or maybe yak is puss and cant D rebound. Big deal. I can admit it. Like declaring FVV should never be on the court ever and yak should just get garbage mins. Both wrong. That's fact now.
They've played well at times since you made those statements. Just own it.

FVV should never be the only PG on the court or initiate PnR's. Hes a good defender, but he can't run an offence. It's no coincidence the lineups he's had the most success in had the ball in CoJo, DeMar or Wright's hands.

I still think there are better options than both when you are trying to win a game (and when Ibaka is playing, in Poeltl's case). But hey, if we are going super small for a short stretch, there's no issue with FVV being one of the smalls.

Believe it or not, I have the capacity to hold multiple complex thoughts at once. BeBe was definitely scouted - his defensive effectiveness has gone way down, and teams have cheated off him on rolls knowing he won't punish them, even if guarded by a small. And at the same time, he was always dependent on Lowry and Pat for his success, when he played without Lowry he was always a lot worse, and without Pat there to boost him defensively and spread the floor for his rim runs, he fell apart under the increased scrutiny from other teams. Such is life. Poeltl will probably hit a similar wall at some point, thankfully we have a solid three man big rotation without him for the playoffs if he struggles for the few minutes we'll likely use him.

[3inthekeon]

I'm not pro-Casey, but the constant complaints we made about him always playing vets over young guys has pretty well fallen by the wayside. He also doesn't single-mindedly stick with rotations - if somethings not working, he's far more likely to mix and match to find something that does.

[DanH]

But can you admit that Casey is performing pretty well, all things considered?

Real tough to argue otherwise. I've said before, overall he's clearly done well. But I don't think it's problematic to discuss the aspects of his performance one poster or another has an issue with. And I also don't think it is fair to write off the possibility that there is another coach better suited to taking this team to greater heights.

[white men can't jump]

I'm not pro-Casey, but the constant complaints we made about him always playing vets over young guys has pretty well fallen by the wayside. He also doesn't single-mindedly stick with rotations - if somethings not working, he's far more likely to mix and match to find something that does.

Well the vet thing was taken care of by Masai. Just remove the option by not having vets in front of young players. And still for much of the first half of the season it was a bit ridiculous how much he favoured Carroll over Powell. Now we have Tucker who at least provides a solid option instead. That has always been the tough part of the "vet" discussion...it's not that Casey would play vets, it's that he played underperforming terrible vets and younger/better options couldn't seem to consistently earn more minutes no matter how much they outperformed the vet.

The rotations thing is still pretty haphazard to me. He was pretty rigid earlier in the year and has been most if his tenure here. Post-break with a pretty different set of options he's thrown all kinds of combos out there. But as I said in previous posts, hard to credit him for that as if they're great coaching moves as they seem a lot more like panic moves he feels forced into. Good on him for being less rigid, I guess? But yeah, definitely seem like decisions made out of desperation rather than having a plan.

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[special1]

#FireCasey

Before results are in? This isn't the first year Casey's been our coach, you know? I also can't say he's been an asset in the playoffs in any run we've had (if anything he's been a liability... Even arguing for a neutral impact is a tough sell)

Pretty sure no one left because they were "wrong". Pretty sure people left because the pro-status quo side never argues with much sense. In fact here's yet another response from you not going beyond the winning % and basically condescending to any poster you don't agree with. Classic "adds nothing to the discussion" posting.

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What happened to you man?

I'm being totally honest when I tell you that you were one of my favourite posters 4-5 years ago.

You were so level headed then. You understood both sides of an argument.

Maybe we need those guys back so you remember where the middle is.

Casey isn't my father. I honestly would love to get a better coach. Is there anyone available who we can say without a doubt is better than Casey?

However, we're also in the middle of a season, close to the playoffs and fighting for 3rd place without our best player.....

Casey is the best coach we've ever had, the winningest coach in our history. Please have some respect!

If Masai thinks he's good enough for now, so do I. That's the camp i'm in right now.

So all this talk of being condescending and pro-status quo is garbage because you're basically saying that you're smarter than Masai and I DON'T THINK SO.


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[ogi]

Well the vet thing was taken care of by Masai. Just remove the option by not having vets in front of young players. And still for much of the first half of the season it was a bit ridiculous how much he favoured Carroll over Powell. Now we have Tucker who at least provides a solid option instead. That has always been the tough part of the "vet" discussion...it's not that Casey would play vets, it's that he played underperforming terrible vets and younger/better options couldn't seem to consistently earn more minutes no matter how much they outperformed the vet.

The rotations thing is still pretty haphazard to me. He was pretty rigid earlier in the year and has been most if his tenure here. Post-break with a pretty different set of options he's thrown all kinds of combos out there. But as I said in previous posts, hard to credit him for that as if they're great coaching moves as they seem a lot more like panic moves he feels forced into. Good on him for being less rigid, I guess? But yeah, definitely seem like decisions made out of desperation rather than having a plan.

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The way I see it is yeah these rotations that he puts out are clearly not planned, but I think that comes with the territory of having all your depth pieces as young, unproven, inexperienced guys. You don't necessarily know what you're going to get and I think he's done a pretty good job rewarding the ones who play hard with more PT and has had a pretty well timed hook for them when they don't. As far as developing guys like that while still trying to win games I don't think you could really ask for more.

Also as far as lineups go Casey and his staff have come up with some pretty damn effective ones during his time here. Now of course there have been a few crazy ones (Scola starting over Pat) but overall he's done a good job with lineups. I don't like his stubbornness when it comes to some of them, but I think overall he's improved in this regard and has been more willing to experiment.

[white men can't jump]

What happened to you man?

I'm being totally honest when I tell you that you were one of my favourite posters 4-5 years ago.

You were so level headed then. You understood both sides of an argument.

Maybe we need those guys back so you remember where the middle is.

Casey isn't my father. I honestly would love to get a better coach. Is there anyone available who we can say without a doubt is better than Casey?

However, we're also in the middle of a season, close to the playoffs and fighting for 3rd place without our best player.....

Casey is the best coach we've ever had, the winningest coach in our history. Please have some respect!

If Masai thinks he's good enough for now, so do I. That's the camp i'm in right now.

So all this talk of being condescending and pro-status quo is garbage because you're basically saying that you're smarter than Masai and I DON'T THINK SO.


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Lmao...yes this is all about me trying to elevate myself above Masai.

Meanwhile all we know is that Masai hasn't made a change. If he thinks a better coach is available, will he make the change? We'll see if and when that happens. And then we can judge Masai on that choice. Maybe the right guy hasn't come along.

Could part of the issue also be that some established coaches haven't been options as more and more guys want the dual coach/exec role? It's possible as well as many top candidates in recent years have gotten that.

Masai clearly also favours stability in general in every sense of operations, so he's not going to make a change he doesn't feel forced to. The only times he had legit windows to fire him were when he took the job, and when we got swept by WAS. This playoffs is the next test and we'll see how it goes.

Another post from special1 about a poster and not contributing anything to the discussion, just trying to discredit me.

Maybe the problem isn't my level-headedness, but rather the results of our team enabling the obviously biased into digging in with more stubbornness and less objectivity and attacking/dismissing those who disagree, and thereby reducing the quality of all discussions.

I definitely don't think I'm smarter than Masai, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with every choice he makes, nor does it necessarily mean I'm wrong.

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[Jrice9]

Ok gents, let's try to keep the posts on Casey and give up with the commentary on other posters (past or present).

To the pro Casey crowd, in your opinion, what has Casey improved at during his tenure?

In contrast to the anti accountability points, i actually think the Raptors are a team with much more fight during his tenure especially the last two years.

They don't get blown out very often and will fight when down 15+ to make it a game (and even win) even against good teams (See the losses to CLippers, Warriors, Cavaliers ths season). Some of this might be counterproductive (I wouldnt play DeMar and Kyle 40+ minutes in a regular season game we are 95% of the time losing) buuuuut imo it has established a culture of work/fight that is good for the team's prospects and improvement. If you listen to national writers who actually watch the team (Matt Moore surprisingly is a good example) they often compliment the Raptors for their discipline and cohesion.

Another part of the culture that Casey has built is just generally a good locker room. The Raptors have had very little drama during Casey's tenure. The Kyle-Dwayne feuds occurred earlier in his tenure (with a brief flare up in 2014-2015) and seem to have ended as a result of Kyle maturing and Casey committing to him as a central point of the team. Outside of that, I can't really think of much Raptor drama unless you want to count #underutilized as something.

A third point I'd actually raise is player development. Outside of JV, I think most of the Raptors core players have become better than we could have dreamed when they began. Very few people thought DeMar would be a borderline All-NBA talent or especially that Kyle would be as good as he is. Ross is a bit of a mixed case but people wrote him off after year 3, and under Casey's watch he became a good enough 6th man that we could convince Orlando to make him a central part of the Ibaka trade (he's playing worse since the trade so while early its not like its clear Casey was holding him back from stardom). In terms of really young players, Delon and Norm have looked really good. Finally, Patrick Patterson has also become a much better player than most expected. The exception to this trend is JV and we can talk about why but he's a tough developmental fit in today's NBA to say the least (and he's still pretty good).

Is player development all Casey? Of course not, the players and developmental staff (including two different coaches at the dleague level) deserve huge credit. But the head coach oversees the process and sets the agenda and has significant influence influence in who is hired as developmental staff. Related to this, Casey has assembled a very good assistant coaching staff the last few years and while Masai definately has lead on that, these people have to want to work under Casey.

[white men can't jump]

The way I see it is yeah these rotations that he puts out are clearly not planned, but I think that comes with the territory of having all your depth pieces as young, unproven, inexperienced guys. You don't necessarily know what you're going to get and I think he's done a pretty good job rewarding the ones who play hard with more PT and has had a pretty well timed hook for them when they don't. As far as developing guys like that while still trying to win games I don't think you could really ask for more.

Also as far as lineups go Casey and his staff have come up with some pretty damn effective ones during his time here. Now of course there have been a few crazy ones (Scola starting over Pat) but overall he's done a good job with lineups. I don't like his stubbornness when it comes to some of them, but I think overall he's improved in this regard and has been more willing to experiment.

I don't disagree with your first paragraph, but you're also kind of reinforcing my thoughts that he's pretty much forced into these situations. And deciding to go with one guy because another is playing badly isn't coaching wizardry. Probably a big chunk of even casual fans on this board would be able to come to the same decisions.

On the 2nd paragraph, it ties into the whole "planning rotations" thing a bit. Why was Scola starting the whole year when he was clearly not the answer? And a similar situation with Carroll this year. If he can experiment out of desperation when things aren't working mid-game, why can't he do it more deliberately and try to find, say, starting units that mesh better? You shouldn't only be proactive when backed into a corner.

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