#FireCasey

[A.I]

The Raptors have improved for 4 straight years under Casey.

If the Celtics went to the conference finals this year, and then came back and won 50 games and lost in the 2nd round next year would you fire Stevens?

I agree its a disappointment if they don't make the conference finals and should be more competitive than last year (though interestingly there is an argument they could be more competitive ina 5 game series than they were in 6 last year if the losses are closer). I just don't know without further observation if that disappointment should be a fireable offense.

It's possible that firing Casey leads to a championship, I have my doubts. It seems more like firing Casey is like firing Dave Joeger to replace him with Fizdale which has been a lateral move (to be honest hiring Joeger after firing Hollins was a lateral move as well but Hollins' legacy has not aged well)

Well it all depends how the Playoffs go, so we'll have to wait and see I suppose.

Also depends on who the new coach will be. Messina or Udoka, both assistant coaches for the Spurs and names that have been talked about in the forums, are 2 coaches that I can see getting the Raptors over the hump.

[Superjudge]

Hahaha

I see we're still all firing the coach eh..... awesome

[big boi]

I agree that this should be the goal, I'm not sure if he should be fired if he doesn't achieve it. Growth in results are not always linear. If the Celtics lose in the first round would Brad Stevens get fired? Should he?

If the Cavaliers lose before the finals will Ty Lu? Should he? Like sometimes stuff happens and team underperform and I'm not sure a single blip should cause a coach to get fired.

Don't get me wrong if we lose to any non Cavaliers team in the bracket the season is a big disappointment ( slight caveat for Kyle's health)

It would be disingenuous of me to say i don't want him replaced regardless (a search and attempt to upgrade even giving a pick to another team if necessary). But I think anything less than progress. That means to me finals or losing a highly competitive series against the Cavs where he doesn't cost us. Doesnt get out coached / doesn't make x & o mistakes / doesn't have poor plays out of time outs or during winning time / doesn't revert to iso ball against a solid defence. This team - on paper - is a substantially better team than last year. No more excuses. Certainly if there is a clear upgrade in the offseason, anywhere, I think we should upgrade regardless.

[Axel]

I just don't agree, I can remember quite a few Raptor blow outs from the last few years and they have a very good points differential which at least is partially sourced to that.

I would have to do more research to compare how many blowouts they have in compared to other teams (and what we define as a blowout might be different). But its hard to make that case recently. They have won 3 of their last 6 games by at least 12.

I think back to games last year when we needed Lowry to play 40 mins a game so that we could beat the 76ers. We would play the Warriors tight and the Sixers tight. That shouldn't happen very often.

But you mention this later about how Casey's credit isn't necessary due to him vs personnel. Why isn't the personnel to blame for playing "soft" or being bad defensively.

Like I think the most obvious reason for bad defense was the frontcourt. We had no power forward for months (Patterson was hurt/hurting and there was no starter) and were forced to play Bebe (As many have said a flawed player) out of position, a rookie 27th overall pick, Sullinger (who was off an injury and out of the league now) or go small ball with non ideal defenders at the 4.

I think its to Casey's credit that immediately after receiving talent upgrades our defense went from like 17th pre all star, to top 3-4 post.

That's crazy improvement and Ibaka and Tucker deserve credit but Casey has used them well particularly in smart lineups. (How many people saw Tucker playing this much 4?. Maybe I was naive but I didn't)

All non stars have different standards for playing time than stars. JeVale McGee (or Ian Clark) has a loser leash than Steph or even Richard Jefferson/Shump in Cleveland.

Good, well coached teams avoid these guys making drama.

Soft can absolutely be accredited to how a team is coached. There is a reason that certain coaches always have tough hard nosed teams; those coaches demand it. So while it's certainly not all Casey's fault, he clearly isn't part of the solution there either.

It's not about playing time as much as what you do when you're on the court. Stars still need to be held accountable and if you don't have your stars to play defence then it's very hard for everyone else to consistently get up defensively. Casey has made that choice and we sometimes pay the price for that.

Agreed but when this is consistently happening the team has a good culture. You can't have a good culture with a coach everyone hates. The players like Casey if you read their interviews and say plenty of good things about him that they don't have to.

Have any ex Raptors ripped him? That's more evidence. Even JJ has not taken any parting shots since leaving for Miami. I think Greivis was upset about being traded but that wasn't being pissed at Casey.

Again, that speaks as much to the character of the players as anything. Doesn't sound like any of them really spoke about Casey at all; they all talk about the players.

Nick Nurse has been a candidate for head coaching jobs. He is routinely mentioned in Arnowitz column on future coaches. Kalamian turned down assistant jobs with both the Wizards and the Rockets this year, both pretty successful teams with good coaches. Jesse Mermuys got promoted to being an assistant coach with the Lakers under Luke Walton (the hottest coach on the market last offseason). Greer got promoted under Thibs.

Has Nurse had a single interview for Head Coaching jobs in the NBA or college? Seems that despite some column, the NBA hasn't yet agreed.

Greer returned to Thibs, not really a promotion related to Casey.

Murmeys I guess would count but since he was with the D-League, how much influence did Casey have?

[Chr1s1anL]

There is a difference. Brad Stevens is only his 4th season with the Celtics and they have improved each year. Tyronn Lue is in his 3rd season and the Cavs made it to the Finals the previous 2 seasons, of course they do have Lebron, so the coach really isn't as important for the Cavs. Casey is in is 6th season with the Raptors, the team has definitely improved, but it has been a bit of a rollercoaster. They make the Playoffs in 2014, lose in Game 7 to the Nets, next season they lose 4-0 to the Wizards which was a huge disappointment and then last season they make the ECF. This season anything less than a competitive ECF series will be a disappointment in my eyes.

I do believe that Casey is what Mark Jackson was to the Warriors. Raptors just need to find their Steve Kerr.

You do realize that Stevens hasn't won a playoffs series right?

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[Axel]

You do realize that Stevens hasn't won a playoffs series right?

Everyone is aware because you frequently post it like it's some sort of compelling argument.

Stevens is doing great things and is still very young. I doubt his playoff record lasts long and will ultimately be long forgotten when his career ends.

[Chr1s1anL]

Everyone is aware because you frequently post it like it's some sort of compelling argument.

Stevens is doing great things and is still very young. I doubt his playoff record lasts long and will ultimately be long forgotten when his career ends.

I guess time will tell. I wouldn't be surprised if Miami beat them in the first round. Why does he get the benefit of the doubt though? Casey was in the exact same position last year and it was ECF or bust. Shouldn't Stevens be held to same standard after two straight 1st rounds exits?

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[Axel]

I guess time will tell. I wouldn't be surprised if Miami beat them in the first round. Why does he get the benefit of the doubt though? Casey was in the exact same position last year and it was ECF or bust. Shouldn't Stevens be held to same standard after two straight 1st rounds exits?

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Because Stevens was widely considered one of the best basketball minds in college and someone that many teams would have loved to have hired. He's widely lauded across the league and is very young.

Casey has never be considered anything like that. It's essentially the benefit of the doubt you give a Top 5 pick vs a second rounder.

[NoPropsneeded]

I guess time will tell. I wouldn't be surprised if Miami beat them in the first round. Why does he get the benefit of the doubt though? Casey was in the exact same position last year and it was ECF or bust. Shouldn't Stevens be held to same standard after two straight 1st rounds exits?

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They probably will, the reason Stevens is held at a higher standard is because his team isn't that great talent wise but they are way overachieving. Outside IT they have no elite scorers or playmakers, and their bigs are pretty bad (no offense to Amir)

[JawsGT]

Personally, I think BOS has a really solid roster. Certainly doesn't have the star power of CLE, or as potent a backcourt as WAS or the Raps, but up and down they've got very good players. They've exceeded my preseason expectations, but I think guys like Bradley and Crowder and certainly IT have improved greatly, which can account for alot of their success. Ultimately, they are depending on some late game heroics from IT to get wins, and if that was happening here I'm not sure how we would take it. I doubt Casey would get much credit for it though, and would probably be frowned upon for having to depend on a 5'8" guard going ham to get wins.

[Ball]

Personally, I think BOS has a really solid roster. Certainly doesn't have the star power of CLE, or as potent a backcourt as WAS or the Raps, but up and down they've got very good players. They've exceeded my preseason expectations, but I think guys like Bradley and Crowder and certainly IT have improved greatly, which can account for alot of their success. Ultimately, they are depending on some late game heroics from IT to get wins, and if that was happening here I'm not sure how we would take it. I doubt Casey would get much credit for it though, and would probably be frowned upon for having to depend on a 5'8" guard going ham to get wins.

I think their ceiling is the same as last year's roster, the same one that got eliminated by Atlanta in 6 games. Yeah they gained Horford, but they also lost Sully and Evan Turner. And I doubt they'll depend much on a rookie in Brown for the playoffs. Not to mention I have serious doubts about whether IT can keep up his late-game heroics in the playoffs.

[NoPropsneeded]

I think their ceiling is the same as last year's roster, the same one that got eliminated by Atlanta in 6 games. Yeah they gained Horford, but they also lost Sully and Evan Turner. And I doubt they'll depend much on a rookie in Brown for the playoffs. Not to mention I have serious doubts about whether IT can keep up his late-game heroics in the playoffs.

He's gonna get exposed on the defensive end, the playoffs are much tougher than the regular season

[JawsGT]

I think their ceiling is the same as last year's roster, the same one that got eliminated by Atlanta in 6 games. Yeah they gained Horford, but they also lost Sully and Evan Turner. And I doubt they'll depend much on a rookie in Brown for the playoffs. Not to mention I have serious doubts about whether IT can keep up his late-game heroics in the playoffs.

I just posted in another thread that I'd like to see BOS vs ATL in the first round. And I forgot they got beat by ATL last year. Even more intrigue than I thought!!

[Jrice9]

Because Stevens was widely considered one of the best basketball minds in college and someone that many teams would have loved to have hired. He's widely lauded across the league and is very young.

Casey has never be considered anything like that. It's essentially the benefit of the doubt you give a Top 5 pick vs a second rounder.

Hey Axel, I don't have time right now to address your big post to me but I'll do it later hopefully.

In regards to this post, Casey was a "hot prospect" when the Raptors hired him. He was the lead assistant and defensive coordinator on the NBA Champions who had just devised the defense to beat the Miami Heat.

I think some of that is/was overblown but Casey was considered a strong hire by Colangelo when he was made Head Coach.

In fact, he probably had the strongest pedigree of a Raptors head coach since Lenny Wilkins.

(Keep in mind our previous Head Coaches were Kevin O'Neil, Smitch, and Jay Triano, none of whom had as much success as Casey before their tenure, during their tenure and none have done anything remotely good since (to be honest I think Triano probably should be fired as Team Canada's coach but thats another thread)

I'm not a Brad Stevens basher either. He's clearly a very solid coach (and was a great College one) and was a hotter ticket than Casey (see their difference in contract), I'm just saying reputationally Casey is/was no slouch.

[Axel]

Hey Axel, I don't have time right now to address your big post to me but I'll do it later hopefully.

In regards to this post, Casey was a "hot prospect" when the Raptors hired him. He was the lead assistant and defensive coordinator on the NBA Champions who had just devised the defense to beat the Miami Heat.

I think some of that is/was overblown but Casey was considered a strong hire by Colangelo when he was made Head Coach.

In fact, he probably had the strongest pedigree of a Raptors head coach since Lenny Wilkins.

(Keep in mind our previous Head Coaches were Kevin O'Neil, Smitch, and Jay Triano, none of whom had as much success as Casey before their tenure, during their tenure and none have done anything remotely good since (to be honest I think Triano probably should be fired as Team Canada's coach but thats another thread)

I'm not a Brad Stevens basher either. He's clearly a very solid coach (and was a great College one) and was a hotter ticket than Casey (see their difference in contract), I'm just saying reputationally Casey is/was no slouch.

But the question was why does Stevens get the benefit of the doubt. He was an elite coaching prospect. Casey was never in that tier and Stevens has a lot of experience yet to add to that brilliance. Hence the benefit of the doubt.