#FireCasey

[Nilanka]

You gotta love sports!

[LJ2]

This thread is intense like a dark back alley lol

Like a dark back alley in Mexico, complete with caged exotic animals being sold on the black market and a guy who opens up a curtain/door leading to who knows where and asks you if you want to enter promising you it leads to the peelers.

[KeonClark]

Like a dark back alley in Mexico, complete with caged exotic animals being sold on the black market and a guy who opens up a curtain/door leading to who knows where and asks you if you want to enter promising you it leads to the peelers.

But upon arrival much to your chagrin it's just dwane casey in his underwear pounding a rock

[KHD]

I think those people who feel JV has been underutilized (And I have been one of them at times) need to factor in how the league has gone. How many centers who are below average defensively (or it least are not strong in the pick and roll) play key parts on good teams?

Kanter is a bench player (albeit a good one) who doesn't close games and is probabally's JVs best comparable.

Most imporantly with Ibaka we have a better option for the 5 down the stretch

OK, sure, let's put JV in Kanter's role. Honestly at this point it'd be terrific. Kanter gets more shots than JV in 5 fewer minutes. When he's on the floor they're using him.

Can you honestly imagine that actually happening with Dwane, though? Look at what's happened to Powell and Joseph. They're just emulating better players (lowry and derozan) rather than playing their own game, and the only explanation I can think of is that Casey's style is rigid to an extreme fault.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

You gotta love sports!

The frustration is that the team has the same strengths, weaknesses, flaws, and fundamental approach that it has had for the past four seasons, when it lost in 7 games to Brooklyn.

The differences?
- DeRozan is a more efficient scorer
- the supporting cast is better

The similarities?
- this team is still a Lowry injury away from being average
- this team still lives and dies on the shooting % of 1 or 2 players
- this team still lives and dies on the bail out 3pt shooting % of a couple players
- this team still can't be bothered to establish an inside game (not exclusively talking about JV)
- this team still can't be bothered to develop alternative scoring options during the regular season, should they be required in the playoffs


It's little wonder the same arguments are being had four years later.

[KeonClark]

OK, sure, let's put JV in Kanter's role. Honestly at this point it'd be terrific. Kanter gets more shots than JV in 5 fewer minutes. When he's on the floor they're using him.

Can you honestly imagine that actually happening with Dwane, though? Look at what's happened to Powell and Joseph. They're just emulating better players (lowry and derozan) rather than playing their own game, and the only explanation I can think of is that Casey's style is rigid to an extreme fault.

This I agree with. Jv wouldn't become "bench scorer" just "bench center". We've seen it before, even though he's our 3rd or 4th best scorer he doesn't get a chance to step up when kyle or demar is out, that job just goes to whoever was their backup at the time.

[Nilanka]

The frustration is that the team has the same strengths, weaknesses, flaws, and fundamental approach that it has had for the past four seasons, when it lost in 7 games to Brooklyn.

The differences?
- DeRozan is a more efficient scorer
- the supporting cast is better

The similarities?
- this team is still a Lowry injury away from being average
- this team still lives and dies on the shooting % of 1 or 2 players
- this team still lives and dies on the bail out 3pt shooting % of a couple players
- this team still can't be bothered to establish an inside game (not exclusively talking about JV)
- this team still can't be bothered to develop alternative scoring options during the regular season, should they be required in the playoffs


It's little wonder the same arguments are being had four years later.

RE: the bolded, seems like Norm is being molded into that role....almost to a fault. He's been chucking a bit too much lately, almost like he was given one of Casey's infamous role cards that says "bench scorer".

[Jrice9]

OK, sure, let's put JV in Kanter's role. Honestly at this point it'd be terrific. Kanter gets more shots than JV in 5 fewer minutes. When he's on the floor they're using him.

Can you honestly imagine that actually happening with Dwane, though? Look at what's happened to Powell and Joseph. They're just emulating better players (lowry and derozan) rather than playing their own game, and the only explanation I can think of is that Casey's style is rigid to an extreme fault.

I agree with you largely in the sense that the Raptors might be better if JV came off teh bench and they staggered him and Ibaka way more. JV also would get more shots with bench units. I'm not sure the Casey doubters or JV fans would enjoy this scenario though but I do think its probabally the right strategy.

Starting Patterson or Tucker at the 4 would improve the starting lineups defense and spacing.

The second part of this point I don't really understand. Why are Norm and CoJo playing like DeMar and Lowry. CoJo and Lowry have very little alike. I wish CoJo had a jumper like Kyle.

Do you mind going into more detail into this point. How are they being developed like our all stars and why is this a bad thing if they were? I need to understand it more if I were to respond.

EDIT: I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) the criticism is Casey has made CoJo and Norm primary scorers since Lowry's injury despite them not being skilled enough to do this and it would have been better to make it JV.

Factually this is untrue for CoJo.

His usage was 18.6% pre all star and 18.0% post all star

Norms has exploded 19.6% to 25% and I think its worth discussing why this is happening and whether it should. I think the answer lies as a I state lower on the page that its due to these bench lineups that are being used.

[Jrice9]

RE: the bolded, seems like Norm is being molded into that role....almost to a fault. He's been chucking a bit too much lately, almost like he was given one of Casey's infamous role cards that says "bench scorer".

But isn't that because when DeMar is off the court we need offensive creation. Part of that might be due to a fair criticism of Casey that he isn't staggering CoJo, Ibaka or JV with DeMar enough so that the 2nd units are't all bench or lacking total creaters

[KHD]

I agree with you largely in the sense that the Raptors might be better if JV came off teh bench and they staggered him and Ibaka way more. JV also would get more shots with bench units. I'm not sure the Casey doubters or JV fans would enjoy this scenario though but I do think its probabally the right strategy.

Starting Patterson or Tucker at the 4 would improve the starting lineups defense and spacing.

The second part of this point I don't really understand. Why are Norm and CoJo playing like DeMar and Lowry. CoJo and Lowry have very little alike. I wish CoJo had a jumper like Kyle.

Do you mind going into more detail into this point. How are they being developed like our all stars and why is this a bad thing if they were? I need to understand it more if I were to respond.

well, no, you evidently don't agree with me. There's no way JV would "get more shots" with bench units under Dwane Casey. We've seen plenty of bench units, they consist of Norman Powell chucking and flailing in the lane in a bad Demar impression.

Starting Patterson or Tucker at the 4 would improve the starting lineups defense and spacing.

Ibaka isn't a 5. You can do it in the 4th, but you can't do it all the time. Our rebounding will be way too weak. Yes, Tucker has had great performances but i don't think you can count on that all the time.

The second part of this point I don't really understand. Why are Norm and CoJo playing like DeMar and Lowry. CoJo and Lowry have very little alike. I wish CoJo had a jumper like Kyle.

uh, yeah, that's my entire point. Why are they playing as if they're Demar and Lowry when they have nowhere near that level of isolation scoring ability? Why are we not playing to the strengths of our players?

[ogi]

RE: the bolded, seems like Norm is being molded into that role....almost to a fault. He's been chucking a bit too much lately, almost like he was given one of Casey's infamous role cards that says "bench scorer".

I wouldn't really say he's been chucking. He goes hard to to the rim and unfortunately isn't good enough yet to finish through contact more often than not. But if you look at his skillset it makes sense. He's explosive and has the ability to handle the basketball. His three is still pretty inconsistent. He's going to struggle but he's a second year player and you just gotta live with the mistakes. It's not like Casey is out there telling him not to pass once the defense collapses on him.

[S.R.]

RE: the bolded, seems like Norm is being molded into that role....almost to a fault. He's been chucking a bit too much lately, almost like he was given one of Casey's infamous role cards that says "bench scorer".

He is. After making sure the first half of the season that DeMar or Lowry were on the floor at all times, Casey is now all too happy to trot out all-bench lineups featuring multiple 1st or 2nd year players and extremely limited offensive capability. In their first run vs. Chicago they literally came out and started racking up shot clock violations and unforced turnovers immediately, digging a deeper hole than the starters had left. I have no idea why usage isn't staggered so either JV or even Ibaka is being used with the bench to provide some offence. The team has gone from "we can't play a single minute without Kyle or DeMar on the floor" to "let's develop these raw kids by giving them extended runs together." How about something in the middle?

[Jrice9]

well, no, you evidently don't agree with me. There's no way JV would "get more shots" with bench units under Dwane Casey. We've seen plenty of bench units, they consist of Norman Powell chucking and flailing in the lane in a bad Demar impression.

I'm not sure thats true at all. We have rarely seen JV get a regular role where he plays with the bench. Do you have the breakdown of his usage when playing with DeMar and Kyle vs not both of them? I also think Casey is definately open to changing who gets the usage as we can see with Norm's very emergance himself.

Ross was given the bench scorer role after being a mediocre starter.

Ibaka isn't a 5. You can do it in the 4th, but you can't do it all the time. Our rebounding will be way too weak. Yes, Tucker has had great performances but i don't think you can count on that all the time.

I think it totally depends on the matchup. Also considering this team plays terrible defense with JV on the floor)a loss in rebounding might be worth it.

I'm more worried about Ibaka holding up physically but again you could vary this depending on the matchup.

How many teams have bruising 5s that JV is necessary for?

In the East, Miami and Atlanta and perhaps Washington (though Gortat largely kills JV) are the only teams in the top 11 that I can think of (its possible I'm missing obvious one/s if so let me know)

uh, yeah, that's my entire point. Why are they playing as if they're Demar and Lowry when they have nowhere near that level of isolation scoring ability? Why are we not playing to the strengths of our players?

But is CoJo doing iso plays at a crazy usage. I just cited before his usage is actually down since Lowry's injury. Give me a few minutes and I'll take a look at iso rate.

[Jrice9]

He is. After making sure the first half of the season that DeMar or Lowry were on the floor at all times, Casey is now all too happy to trot out all-bench lineups featuring multiple 1st or 2nd year players and extremely limited offensive capability. In their first run vs. Chicago they literally came out and started racking up shot clock violations and unforced turnovers immediately, digging a deeper hole than the starters had left. I have no idea why usage isn't staggered so either JV or even Ibaka is being used with the bench to provide some offence. The team has gone from "we can't play a single minute without Kyle or DeMar on the floor" to "let's develop these raw kids by giving them extended runs together." How about something in the middle?

I totally agree with this. My only question about JV or Ibaka is how many minutes are you going to play them straight or with limited break. Bigs get tired more easily so it can be a bit more difficult to stagger them like this. However, Casey can and should do this by taking JV out earlier and putting him in earlier. Take JV out at the 6-7 minute mark if you have to so he's ready to start quarter #2

[Nilanka]

But isn't that because when DeMar is off the court we need offensive creation. Part of that might be due to a fair criticism of Casey that he isn't staggering CoJo, Ibaka or JV with DeMar enough so that the 2nd units are't all bench or lacking total creaters

I understand the reasoning....I'm just not a fan of the execution. We definitely need a scoring punch while DeRozan sits. But I think we can create better looks than fading corner 3s.