#FireCasey

[Chr1s1anL]

I'm done with this thread it's actually just sad now. Casey has done more than enough to deserve being this teams coach and Masai agrees. These discussion really don't lead anywhere. It's dumb because everyone here knows that Casey is Masai's guy. It would take something serious to happen for Masai to fire him. I guess you guys can keep hoping for that.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

[jimmie]

Casey's inability to maximize all his pieces, and how his inability to be consistent with accountability just makes it more frustrating.

Yeah, this is the common refrain. And yet, consistent, year-over-year improvement in the face of key roster changes, key injuries, etc. culminating in a first-ever ECF appearance for Toronto over the past 4 years. Really solid development of young guys through the Raptors system, guys no one expected to be contributors. Absolutely maximizing guys like Derozan and Lowry far beyond what anyone expected of either of them 5 years ago.

Again, the only thing he hasn't done in Toronto is win a championship.

[Chr1s1anL]

Yeah, this is the common refrain. And yet, consistent, year-over-year improvement in the face of key roster changes, key injuries, etc. culminating in a first-ever ECF appearance for Toronto over the past 4 years. Really solid development of young guys through the Raptors system, guys no one expected to be contributors. Absolutely maximizing guys like Derozan and Lowry far beyond what anyone expected of either of them 5 years ago.

Again, the only thing he hasn't done in Toronto is win a championship.

Preach brother.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

[JawsGT]

Yeah, this is the common refrain. And yet, consistent, year-over-year improvement in the face of key roster changes, key injuries, etc. culminating in a first-ever ECF appearance for Toronto over the past 4 years. Really solid development of young guys through the Raptors system, guys no one expected to be contributors. Absolutely maximizing guys like Derozan and Lowry far beyond what anyone expected of either of them 5 years ago.

Again, the only thing he hasn't done in Toronto is win a championship.

I feel the only piece that one could argue that he hasn't maximized is maybe JV. Pretty much everyone else is being used the way they should IMO. And even in JV's case, although I'd like to see him get more usage, I don't think it should be much more than it already is. There is really no team in the league that uses a big as a higher usage player out of the post. Most of the best bigs in the game that are higher usage players (Cousins, Davis, Gasol, now Jokic and Porzingis) have good to great perimeter games with regards to passing and shooting. I don't think JV is near those guys in terms of those abilities. And not every PnR can result in a lob or pass to the big guy.

[white men can't jump]

Yeah, this is the common refrain. And yet, consistent, year-over-year improvement in the face of key roster changes, key injuries, etc. culminating in a first-ever ECF appearance for Toronto over the past 4 years. Really solid development of young guys through the Raptors system, guys no one expected to be contributors. Absolutely maximizing guys like Derozan and Lowry far beyond what anyone expected of either of them 5 years ago.

Again, the only thing he hasn't done in Toronto is win a championship.

What key roster changes? Losing Amir? There have been many guys who stayed as well, and no real critical piece was removed while in most ways the roster was consistently improved by management. The most key roster change was adding Ibaka this year. The last one before that was adding Rudy, which almost sank the team as we went full iso with him. Other than that mostly role players in and out while getting younger.

And yeah, young guys have developed as Masai favours a young team with few veterans...Casey has still taken every opportunity to overplay vets over youngsters (Scola, Salmons, AA, Carroll).

Every team deals with injuries (or benefits from their opponents'). Our teams have been very deep, so that clearly helps.

ECF appearance largely on the back of the player he periodically benches (rightly or wrongly), so hard to say that playoff run was according to Casey's gameplan.

And isn't a championship the goal? There are 29 losers in the NBA every year. We lack a LeBron. Doesn't the most likely course to improve seem to be getting a coach who does seem to elevate the team to be more than just the sum of its parts? (I mean, are we going to be able to draft/sign/trade for a superstar the way our roster is and the success we're having) Is Casey that guy? Really doesn't seem like it.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[big boi]

Very accurate. A lot of people here feel JV is some superstar that hasn't been used correctly. Their hate for Casey stems from there.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

I'm not sure if the 'you're' in this context meant you.

And no it isn't accurate. The attempt to frame the question and answer pretty much amounts to a strawman argument. And there are pages and pages on this thread that articulately express the full range of reasons. Like I said the last 50 would probably capture enough of them. So if you haven't been around and want to catch up, reading them is a good way to get up to speed.

[Fully]

Just in regards to the first paragraph, that's kknd of the point. Our roster was in flux with trades, a key injury, a young guy who hadn't been in the rotation all year coming back as an unknown, etc...

So he made obvious choices incorporating Ibaka and Tucker in our weaker positions. And the rest has all been very random. Meanwhile we haven't seen a big change on any strategic level. So it's hard to attribute the sucess of lineups that have never played together to the coach. Good on the coach for trying them, but we've also seen him make rotation choices in the past couple of months that have likely directly led to some losses. So throwing poop at the wall and hoping it sticks sounds about right, especially if you count the fact that tactics are pretty much the same. It either works or it doesn't, and it doesn't seem like there's much vision/planning involved from a coaching standpoint.

I don't think there's any lack of rationality there.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

You're still not making sense unfortunately. If you think the thought process of "I hope the player I'm moving ahead in the rotation is better than the one I'm moving back" is 'random' than every rotation change in the history of basketball history has been random.

[white men can't jump]

You're still not making sense unfortunately. If you think the thought process of "I hope the player I'm moving ahead in the rotation is better than the one I'm moving back" is 'random' than every rotation change in the history of basketball history has been random.

That's not what I'm saying at all though.

I'm saying the rotation changes we've seen have been largely forced by circumstance, rather than some calculated "I think this guy has shown enough to give him a chance to play ahead of player x". That's why we see inconsistent rotations sometimes within the same game from Casey. It's not coaching wizardry to be like..."oh, Wright didn't play well in the first half, let me try FVV in the 2nd"...and that happens to work out from time to time. There doesn't seem to be a specific vision of "I'm going to put this player in in order to try and get x result". It's just "this isn't working, let me try something else". I can't credit any coach for that. Again, that is throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. Don't know how you could see it as anything else.

*Panic moves are never "good coaching", even if it's Pop or Phil Jackson doing it. Lots of Casey's "random" rotations, like many lineups we've seen since the all-star break, are panic moves. It's putting 5 guys who've probably never even practiced together on the floor because you don't know what else to do. We've seen these on a fairly consistent basis.

[big boi]

That's not what I'm saying at all though.

I'm saying the rotation changes we've seen have been largely forced by circumstance, rather than some calculated "I think this guy has shown enough to give him a chance to play ahead of player x". That's why we see inconsistent rotations sometimes within the same game from Casey. It's not coaching wizardry to be like..."oh, Wright didn't play well in the first half, let me try FVV in the 2nd"...and that happens to work out from time to time. There doesn't seem to be a specific vision of "I'm going to put this player in in order to try and get x result". It's just "this isn't working, let me try something else". I can't credit any coach for that. Again, that is throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. Don't know how you could see it as anything else.

*Panic moves are never "good coaching", even if it's Pop or Phil Jackson doing it. Lots of Casey's "random" rotations, like many lineups we've seen since the all-star break, are panic moves. It's putting 5 guys who've probably never even practiced together on the floor because you don't know what else to do. We've seen these on a fairly consistent basis.

Just like featuring JV as the 3rd offensive option in the Indiana series. That only happened after everything else he tried failed. He didn't plan for it. He didn't even prepare for it. And still they didn't go to JV near enough even though he was dominating and scoring efficiently. Only after the clips were empty and the hoop was left standing did JV get a chance to save Dwayne's job.

[Fully]

That's not what I'm saying at all though.

I'm saying the rotation changes we've seen have been largely forced by circumstance, rather than some calculated "I think this guy has shown enough to give him a chance to play ahead of player x". That's why we see inconsistent rotations sometimes within the same game from Casey. It's not coaching wizardry to be like..."oh, Wright didn't play well in the first half, let me try FVV in the 2nd"...and that happens to work out from time to time. There doesn't seem to be a specific vision of "I'm going to put this player in in order to try and get x result". It's just "this isn't working, let me try something else". I can't credit any coach for that. Again, that is throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. Don't know how you could see it as anything else.

*Panic moves are never "good coaching", even if it's Pop or Phil Jackson doing it. Lots of Casey's "random" rotations, like many lineups we've seen since the all-star break, are panic moves. It's putting 5 guys who've probably never even practiced together on the floor because you don't know what else to do. We've seen these on a fairly consistent basis.

Poets has jumped Bebe in the rotation by outplaying him, not because of injury or other circumstances. Casey has gone with Wright or FVV as the back up PG very effectively since Lowry went down, based on how they've played in particular game, with largely good results. These are the only two big rotation shake ups I can think of aside from the two guys they traded for, so you'll have to enlighten me on what you're talking about. It's as if you're condemning Casey because his GM made trades or because he's gone with guys who have outplayed their competition on the roster. You're the same poster who has ranted about accountability lately, no?

[big boi]

I'm done with this thread it's actually just sad now. Casey has done more than enough to deserve being this teams coach and Masai agrees. These discussion really don't lead anywhere. It's dumb because everyone here knows that Casey is Masai's guy. It would take something serious to happen for Masai to fire him. I guess you guys can keep hoping for that.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk

I understand your decision to be done with this thread. Given the momentous contribution you've made to it with zingers like "hater", "Haters", "Why you gotta hate?" And of course... "haters gonna hate", I can understand your frustration. You will be missed.

[white men can't jump]

Poets has jumped Bebe in the rotation by outplaying him, not because of injury or other circumstances. Casey has gone with Wright or FVV as the back up PG very effectively since Lowry went down, with largely good results. These are the only two big rotation shake ups I can think of aside from the two guys they traded for, so you'll have to enlighten me on what you're talking about.

Sigh.

You haven't noticed the "random" 5-man groups out there? Especially in 2nd halves when we're down?

Between Powell-Carroll-Wright-FVV-Tucker-Pat-Poeltl-JV...Basically with anyone who's not Ibaka and DeMar (and usually Joseph), you never know what lineup he's going to use late in the game. It has meant that we've had 5-man lineups out there who again, very likely have not ever even played together as a unit in practice, nevermind a game. That's panicked coaching. That's "this isn't working, maybe this will!". Why isn't it good coaching? Because it means you don't have a plan. You don't have a vision of "we need to do this, this is the unit I'm going to use for it and I'm going to need these guys on the court". Heck, how could you if those guys have never been on the floor together? I can't give a coach credit for that.

(Also, Poeltl outplayed Bebe for most of the season. Basically after the first month or two where he had rookie jitters, he's been far more solid/stable an option than Bebe....so it's a change that's long overdue)

[white men can't jump]

This is another frustrating angle to the whole Casey debate.

Even many of his supporters have argued that a good reason to keep him is that he's a "good enough coach for the team we have" because we didn't have the talent of a contender. Now, we obviously lack a top 5 player that is often a team might be a contender. However, could our roster really be anymore solid without one than it is right at this moment?

We don't have a glaring weakness from a position standpoint. SF was bad because we lacked size/grit (we were still pretty good on the wing with Powell and Ross off the bench, just Carroll was horrid). We arguably have top 10 talents starting at the other 4 positions. We're very deep and most (all?) of our role players are good 2-way players. We have about as good a team as you can get without a LeBron, Duncan, Shaq, MJ, etc.

Our biggest problem now, especially with Lowry out, is shooting. That shouldn't be a fatal issue.

So if we don't get far with Casey this year, is it time to change coaches? Or should we wait til we get a top 5 player? if that's the case, we're likely waiting until the next time this team is forced to tank and rebuild.

If we had changed coaches already, would we have a better shot at stealing a title (that's what teams without a top tier superstar do) this year? This team may not even exist next season with the free agents we have. We may not be able to maintain this quality or depth at all positions.

All this is just to say I think the frustration I, and other posters have, is fairly well justified.

**In a way, I feel that if we had a top 5 player or a truly generational player like LeBron, we'd be fine with Casey. It would reduce the burden on the coach to be more creative in finding ways to maximize all our pieces.

[A.I]

This is another frustrating angle to the whole Casey debate.

Even many of his supporters have argued that a good reason to keep him is that he's a "good enough coach for the team we have" because we didn't have the talent of a contender. Now, we obviously lack a top 5 player that is often a team might be a contender. However, could our roster really be anymore solid without one than it is right at this moment?

We don't have a glaring weakness from a position standpoint. SF was bad because we lacked size/grit (we were still pretty good on the wing with Powell and Ross off the bench, just Carroll was horrid). We arguably have top 10 talents starting at the other 4 positions. We're very deep and most (all?) of our role players are good 2-way players. We have about as good a team as you can get without a LeBron, Duncan, Shaq, MJ, etc.

Our biggest problem now, especially with Lowry out, is shooting. That shouldn't be a fatal issue.

So if we don't get far with Casey this year, is it time to change coaches? Or should we wait til we get a top 5 player? if that's the case, we're likely waiting until the next time this team is forced to tank and rebuild.

If we had changed coaches already, would we have a better shot at stealing a title (that's what teams without a top tier superstar do) this year? This team may not even exist next season with the free agents we have. We may not be able to maintain this quality or depth at all positions.

All this is just to say I think the frustration I, and other posters have, is fairly well justified.

For me, anything less than a competitive series in the Eastern Conference Finals should result in Casey getting fired.

[white men can't jump]

For me, anything less than a competitive series in the Eastern Conference Finals should result in Casey getting fired.

What is competitive though? We took the Cavs to 6 games, but it really wasn't a series. And our first two rounds were far more competitive than they should have been. Would a similar playoff run be good enough?

It wouldn't for me. 6 games in the ECF would be fine, but only if we're not getting creamed in every game we lose. And I'd hope we don't struggle in both early rounds as badly as last year (though we're not as likely to get as favourable a matchup as Indy).

Frankly I'd like Casey gone either way if he can't help get us a ring, but if he stays it'd be easier to live with.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk